2002 F80 tilt problem and questions

[Northwester]

Hi folks,

First post here, just joined.

I have a 2002 F80 TRLA with around 100 hours on it (same basic engine as F100). It developed a problem where when it is tilted up it will slowly sink back down (takes between 1 and 4 hours, on average). I first tried manually bleeding the system a few times, and that "worked" for about two 24 hour periods, but then it resumed sinking.

My local Yamaha shop suggested replacing the two "main valve sub assemblies, " part numbers 71 (or 68 as a package) in this diagram:

2002 F80TLRA Yamaha Outboard POWER TRIM TILT ASSY 1 Diagram and Parts

They are booked solid, so I ordered and picked up the parts, but was not able to have them do the work. I happened to mention that I had the engine hanging from a hoist (doing a little transom work) and they said "oh, you can do this yourself then, you just remove them with a flat-bladed screwdriver, and then put the new ones in good and tight with a little grease." Okay, sweet! Saves me dropping off the boat and picking it up (over an hour's drive each way), plus I like knowing my engine better and doing my own work when possible.

However, I noticed on the photocopied sheet they gave me from their manual, that it says, "Removal of the PTT first is necessary." I was hoping to do this over the weekend, while the engine is on the hoist, so I can't call the shop, but... they certainly didn't mention that "little" step. Has anyone replaced these valves? It does look like I could just remove a circlip, then a cover plate, then each valve has a slot to unscrew/replace it. But now I wonder why they say to remove the PTT first... Maybe that is if the engine is mounted to the boat? Vs. mine hanging by a hoist chain?

(I did search here and saw mention that you are only supposed to do one at a time - good info!)

Any insight would be most welcome. Thanks!
Northwester

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If you loosen that manual screw you should be able move the tilt assembly in the bracket. Its preferred to have the ram extended.

Once your remove the large SS pin at the top and the same pin at the bottom, (un-plug, the assembly should come out. I believe they want the entire unit out as your part is attached the main using which you have Very limited/if any accesss to.

It appears there's only that c-clip holds that assembly from backing out. You probably already know that screw just snugs down.

[boscoe99]

It is about a five minute job to remove the over ride valve.

Problem is that it is a much bigger job to gain access to the valve.

Usually there is a bracket that is in the way. There is a hole cast in the bracket so that a screw driver can be used to unscrew the valve to manually raise and lower the motor, but that hole is not large enough for the valve assembly to come through the hole. Assuming you could remove the circlip which you can't with the bracket in the way.

The procedure is to remove the PTT assembly from the motor. Not a particularly big job. Take the assembly to the work bench and remove the valve assembly there.

[Northwester]

I should make sure we are talking about the same part - I'm a little bit confused!

In the drawing posted just above this, the manual tilt release is highlighted in yellow. Straight below that is another circle. That is what I believe is the "entrance" to these valves. There is a circlip there, and what I presume is a cover. Underneath that I'm hoping to see the valve, which has a big slot in the top for a slotted screwdriver (I have the new ones on hand to look at).

Right now, with the engine hanging from a hoist (right next to the transom as I did not disconnect the steering cable or other lines), the cap/circlip on both sides is free and clear. But now I can't remember: Maybe that is not the case when the engine is on the boat? I know that the mechanic mentioned that "Oh, since you have the engine off the boat, you can just replace these, easy peasy."

But then I saw on the instructions (copied off from their book) to remove the PTT mechanism. So I started to wonder...

Does the fact that I have access to the cap/circiips negate needing to remove the PTT mechanism? Maybe that's the crux of it.

Thanks for your help!

Northwester

[99yam40]

I believe the part you are saying with the C clips is the pin that the T&T pivots on.
#32 on here 2002 F80TLRA Yamaha Outboard BRACKET 1 Diagram and Parts

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I should make sure we are talking about the same part - I'm a little bit confused!

In the drawing posted just above this, the manual tilt release is highlighted in yellow. Straight below that is another circle. That is what I believe is the "entrance" to these valves. There is a circlip there, and what I presume is a cover. Underneath that I'm hoping to see the valve, which has a big slot in the top for a slotted screwdriver (I have the new ones on hand to look at).

Right now, with the engine hanging from a hoist (right next to the transom as I did not disconnect the steering cable or other lines), the cap/circlip on both sides is free and clear. But now I can't remember: Maybe that is not the case when the engine is on the boat? I know that the mechanic mentioned that "Oh, since you have the engine off the boat, you can just replace these, easy peasy."

But then I saw on the instructions (copied off from their book) to remove the PTT mechanism. So I started to wonder...

Does the fact that I have access to the cap/circiips negate needing to remove the PTT mechanism? Maybe that's the crux of it.

Thanks for your help!

Northwester

The large screw, that you use to manually bleed is what/all you need access to.

The main transom bracket, the access hole is too small to allow removal of your new part/assembly.

As long as you can access that area, with the bracket out of the way, pull the "C" clip and your good to go.

*If the engine was still mounted to the hull, raising/lowering the engine would NOT give you enough access to the valve (as its attached via the top and bottom lower LARGE stainless steel pivot pin's), thus the need to remove the T&T from the bracket.

I (we) believe the kit you have is the new release valve screw and all the seals, etc which will go into the same hole as the old one.

** The bottom line is you need FULL access to that screw and the larger outer diameter assembly.

Pulling the T&T, laying it on the work bench sideways, will make it accessable and you won't loose much if any fluid***

NOTE; Its a great time too to re-grease those SS shafts while you have easy accesss to everything. I'd strongly sugggest using the recommended Yamaha grease for the larger SS pin's.

Make sense?

[Northwester]

I had an F225 do that at the dock over a period of a few days. I added fluid and it was fine. you don't have to bleed Yamaha T/T hydraulics, IMO.

When my engine first starting "sinking" I called a good Yamaha shop. They recommended that I first check the fluid. I did and it was chock full. So then they recommended that I do the "manual bleed" cycle a few times, because if there is some "crud" lodged in one of the valves, this can clear it. I forget the specifics, but I think it was to raise it with the power tilt, then open bleed screw and let it sink down, then close bleed screw and run back up with power tilt - and then repeat three or so times. This "fixed" it temporarily, but not permanently. So hence my buying the new valves that I'm asking about.

Maybe it's not the same on all Yamahas? The mechanic did tell me that these new valves are "self-bleeding," so apparently I don't need to do the manual bleed/repeat procedure after I get them in.

[Northwester]

The large screw, that you use to manually bleed is what/all you need access to.

The main transom bracket, the access hole is too small to allow removal of your new part/assembly.

Okay, I think I see what you are saying - because I remember that manual bleed screw is accessed through a small "cutout" in the bracket. (I don't have the computer and the engine in the same place, so going by memory as I type.)

As long as you can access that area, with the bracket out of the way, pull the "C" clip and your good to go.

*If the engine was still mounted to the hull, raising/lowering the engine would NOT give you enough access to the valve (as its attached via the top and bottom lower LARGE stainless steel pivot pin's), thus the need to remove the T&T from the bracket.

Aha!

I (we) believe the kit you have is the new release valve screw and all the seals, etc which will go into the same hole as the old one.

So it sounds like the "circles" I was looking at (straight below the bleed screw in the diagram you posted) are not the right place. I was wondering, as it seemed like they would be accessible all the time, and plus they really didn't lead to anyplace that looked "important" enough - they look more just like bracket hinge/tube access.

One note is that I do have TWO of the valves, so apparently there is one on each side (?) The (tiny!) diagram I have does show two, positioned one on each side, sort of like Frankenstein neck knobs (but recessed). I think I now see where to look when I get down to the engine (heading down here now). If it does not become obvious, I will take a photograph of this diagram (that the shop gave me) and post it here later.

NOTE; Its a great time too to re-grease those SS shafts while you have easy accesss to everything. I'd strongly sugggest using the recommended Yamaha grease for the larger SS pin's.

Which shafts do you mean that I should be greasing? Sorry if this is a super basic question - I've never really worked on an outboard before (grew up with things like 6hp Evinrudes, but we just ran them all summer and then took them to a storage/shop over the winter).

Is there anything that would substitute for the Yamaha grease? I do normally buy all genuine Yamaha stuff (parts, Ring Free, oil, etc.) but I'm a three-hour round trip from the Yamaha shop now. If there is nothing else suitable, I'll try to go over there and get some next week.

Make sense?

Not yet, but I think it may when I now go look at the engine. I very much appreciate your help, and I'll follow up whether it is with more questions or just to let you all know how it went.

Thanks,
Northwester

PS: So far I have replaced the regulator/rectifier with a new improved (superseded one) (saved original for a spare), and changed the prop and the incoming fuel line, but that's it. Presuming I get through this and get the engine back on the transom, my next "new thing" is to change the oil. Apparently I'm working my way from harder to easier

[rodbolt17]

here is the list of things that can cause leak down on that unit.
up main valve.
manual release valve.
trim piston orings.
free piston.
two way check valve.
myself I would recommend removing the unit and sending it to a shop that has techs with at least electrical and drivetrain certificates on the wall.
the 67F unit used on the f80/100 is a single cyl double ram setup that can and will kick a techs butt.

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Which shafts do you mean that I should be greasing? Sorry if this is a super basic question - I've never really worked on an outboard before (grew up with things like 6hp Evinrudes, but we just ran them all summer and then took them to a storage/shop over the winter).


You should be able to use a water resistant grease, (similar to your prop shaft) I would think would be ok.

Anyway, the TWO shafts (I referred to earlier), are (#1) what secures the lower end of the trim and tilt unit to the LOWER transom BRACKET.

(#2) the top pin goes thru the T&T unit at the top and allows the pivoting of the engine when you raise and lower it.

Both those pins out and unplugged, the entire unit will come out..

Parts 28 and 32;

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Ya...201/parts.html

[Northwester]

Rodbolt,

Hmm, sounds like maybe the "cause" was oversimplified (they recommended simply replacing these two valve assemblies). I guess since I have them on hand now, and since the engine is off the transom (for some transom work), I will go ahead and put them in. I'm leaving on a trip before this shop can get me in.

One question though: If it is one of the other problems you mention, could it ruin these new valves? If not, it seems like a reasonable gamble to put them in and see if it fixes it, and if this doesn't fix it I will take it in to my more usual Yamaha place this winter (or, where do you work? I'd sure bring it to you if I could.). I can boat with this problem -- it's a bit of a pain because I have to put it on the tilt bracket overnight, but not insurmountable.

There is one possible clue - I didn't mention it at first to try to keep things to the point: That is that I was trailering last year with the engine supported on an M-Y Wedge (goes over tilt shaft), and the Wedge failed and my engine sank partway down. No idea how long it was like that as I only saw it at the next rest stop. "Luckily" the Wedge wedged against the transom and held it from going down all the way or it would have hit the pavement

However at that time, and ever since, no fluid has ever leaked out that I have seen, and also the fluid level was full when I checked the reservoir. So that may be just a red herring.

Back to my question earlier: I went back down to the boat and now I see clearly where those screws are, and why the PTT either has to come out or the engine be off the boat: I had the drawing mentally rotated 90º and was thus expecting the things to be one on each side - but actually they are one on the back of the motor and one on the front (up against the transom). They don't seem to be near the manual tilt release, however.

I'm going to hold off on doing this until I (hopefully) hear back from someone here that putting in these valves won't potentially ruin them if the problem is actually something else. In other words, if it's a reasonable gamble, and unlikely to mess up my engine for my upcoming trip, I'll go ahead and do it since I have the engine hanging. But if not, I may leave well enough alone and just live with it until after the trip, then find a good Yamaha shop who considers all of Rodbolt's possible causes.

I'll see if I can upload a few images here, so others can see what we are talking about.

1) Photocopy from a service manual at Yamaha shop
2) Diagram from same
3) My engine bracket with notes
4) The Yamaha diagram from a parts ordering page
5) One of the new valves (I have two)

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ok, your first post was for the manual release valve (part assembly #68), which is on the side.

The valves your changing is NOT the release valve(#68), but (part #50 x 2), one is on the front and one faces rearward, consisting of 8 separate parts (for each valve)...

That's where all the confusion is...

[Northwester]

I see that now That happened because although I think I had the part name correct, since I misunderstood where the parts were, I thought they were those other numbers (which are on the diagram where I thought these were, if that makes sense). I should have double checked the part numbers. I'm really sorry for any extra effort on everyone's part due to my blunder!

I was suspicious already because where I originally thought they were, I couldn't see why you would need to remove the engine from the boat, or the PTT from the engine. Now it all makes sense (so you all did end up helping me, thanks!)

So anyway, now that we are on the same page, I'm wondering if I should even put these new valves in. With the long list of what could be causing the sinking problem, did the shop oversimplify in telling me just to replace these (which they were originally going to do)?

If one of the other things is the real culprit, will it damage these valves if I put them in?

And what are the chances I'd mess something up before heading out on a trip, when the engine works fine now, but just won't stay tilted up (a hassle, but I can live with it). My original blunder notwithstanding, I'm not too big a hack

I could just wait and bring the whole thing in to a (different) shop this winter - but I do have the engine off the transom for the next couple of days, and the parts (#50!) in hand.

Thanks,
Northwester

[TownsendsFJR1300]

No problem..

IMO, with the parts in hand, I'd just pull the unit (just those two big pins and plug) and run the unit down to the shop.

Bet there isn't an hour in labor and your shop could knock that out inbetween jobs... You would have the majority (R&R) of it done.

Just make sure they have done those valves before and aren't learning on your unit..

[rodbolt17]

its one of the more difficult units Yamaha ever used to mess about with.
if that shop does not have the correct tooling its possible to destroy the ram assy trying to disassemble it.