For Panasonic - Not marine related

[boscoe99]

It is tough out there in the aviation world. And folks wonder why a cheap Yamaha motor can have issues. This is a $200,000,000.00 plus product with an apparent design flaw.

A Pratt & Whitney F135 engine of a U.S. Air Force F-35A caught on fire during start, severely damaging the aircraft, due to a tailwind, says the Air Force Incident Investigation Board’s (AIB) report released this week. The pilot of the aircraft received some burns during egress and damage to the aircraft is expected to exceed $17 million. According to the report, “the mishap was caused by a tailwind blowing hot air from either the emergency power unit exhaust or the aircraft’s engine exhaust into the emergency power unit. The hot air entering the emergency power unit inlet started a sequence of events ultimately ending in an uncontained engine fire.”

Power from the emergency power unit is used to start the main engine. When hot exhaust gases entered the emergency power unit inlet, an automatic shutdown of the unit was triggered. Shutdown of the unit cut power to the F135’s engine starter, just prior to the engine reaching a self-sustaining speed. The AIB concluded that “since engine combustion had already began, an increasing amount of fuel was delivered to the engine in an effort to increase combustion and overcome the slowing acceleration.” However, since the engine was turning below a self-sustaining speed, the additional fuel, rather than increasing engine speed, resulted in a fire that spread beyond the combustion section of the turbine. The tailwind, in addition to causing in the original fault, then spread the flames across the aircraft.

[rodbolt17]

kinda like that KC-130 Monday in MS.
all one can say is fair winds and following seas.

[boscoe99]

Yes, that was a particularly bad one. Inflight break up it appears. I don't even want to imagine what the crew was going through on the way down.

Makes these motor troubles seem small.

[rodbolt17]

kinda like the USS Fitzgerald accident.
how did that happen in our modern Navy?

having done the pre-commissioning and commissioning of the USS Arliegh Burke and as an FC2 RET I cannot help but feel deeply not only for the poor souls in the berting compartment but also for the ones that had to dog the water tight doors.
I trained for both scenes but never had to do it.
I berthed in #1 compartment.

the accident took out berthing 1 and 2 and a machinery space.

part of our damage control training was going from your berthing and workcenter to the fantail in less than 2 min while blind folded.
that ship is capable of going from 31 knots ahead to 15 knots astern in 58 seconds.
been there done that, it is scary.

[boscoe99]

Accidents and near accidents make one wonder.

An Air Canada flight was recently on approach into San Francisco. There are two parallel runways, side by side. Lights were out on the left runway given that the runway was out of service for repairs/maintenance. To the right of the right runway was a taxiway with four airplanes waiting their turn for take off.

The Air Canada airplane lined up on the taxiway. Guess he thought it was the right runway. He asked if he was cleared to land because he thought he saw lights on his runway. Some unknown voice of reason shouted out "you are lined up to land on the taxiway". He did a go around. They are now wondering if the voice had not been heard would he have landed on the taxiway with four airplanes on it.

Would have been messy.

Getting back to the Fitzgerald, it does make you wonder. Folks on the bridge who's sole job it was to stay out of the way of others. Looks like the freighter had the right of way, but even if not the Navy ship was much nimbler and could have easily gotten out of the way. One for the books.

[rodbolt17]

to say the burke is nimble is a fact.
I was onboard for some of the engineering tests for turns and crashbacks.
it has 4 LM2500 main propulsion turbines rated at about 26000 HP each.
it used a 5 blade variable con*****able pith system with two propshafts.
to go from fwd to reverse you simply changed the prop pitch.

underway sonar scans,CIC scans and Nav scans plus there are two bridge wing lookouts. how in the heck did they allow themselves to get whacked???????

even in my little seapro if I am unsure of a passing boat,crossing boat or overtaking a boat I will stand down.
he had the right of way is not a good epitaph.

[99yam40]

does anyone think we will ever hear what really happened on that ship to cause this?

very strange how long it took for the freighter to turn around to see what the heck they hit.

seem no one was paying attention on either ship

did anyone hear much on the C130?
I thought I heard the wings and tail where still in place when it hit the ground upside down

[rodbolt17]

from what I have read there are two main crash impact sites with a debris radius of about 5 miles. would seem to indicate an airframe failure.
not strange about the cargo ship at all. takes a bit to deaccelerate the engines and reverse the prop shaft. that coupled with a limited turning radius makes maneuvering in a shipping channel difficult with a 40,000 ton vessel.

that is part of what makes the burke class so nimble, we don't slow the engines nor reverse shaft rotation,simply alter the propellers pitch.

take a 360ft boat and go from 31 knots ahead to 15 knots astern makes things jump and viberate a bit.

also makes lagging fall off bulkheads and stuff come out of places.

[panasonic]

It is tough out there in the aviation world. And folks wonder why a cheap Yamaha motor can have issues. This is a $200,000,000.00 plus product with an apparent design flaw.

A Pratt & Whitney F135 engine of a U.S. Air Force F-35A caught on fire during start, severely damaging the aircraft, due to a tailwind, says the Air Force Incident Investigation Board’s (AIB) report released this week. The pilot of the aircraft received some burns during egress and damage to the aircraft is expected to exceed $17 million. According to the report, “the mishap was caused by a tailwind blowing hot air from either the emergency power unit exhaust or the aircraft’s engine exhaust into the emergency power unit. The hot air entering the emergency power unit inlet started a sequence of events ultimately ending in an uncontained engine fire.”

Power from the emergency power unit is used to start the main engine. When hot exhaust gases entered the emergency power unit inlet, an automatic shutdown of the unit was triggered. Shutdown of the unit cut power to the F135’s engine starter, just prior to the engine reaching a self-sustaining speed. The AIB concluded that “since engine combustion had already began, an increasing amount of fuel was delivered to the engine in an effort to increase combustion and overcome the slowing acceleration.” However, since the engine was turning below a self-sustaining speed, the additional fuel, rather than increasing engine speed, resulted in a fire that spread beyond the combustion section of the turbine. The tailwind, in addition to causing in the original fault, then spread the flames across the aircraft.

That C-130 was reportedly tipped up on its wing last month during a big storm somewhere down there...god only knows what stresses where put on that wing during that incident. God rest the poor service people who where lost.


As for the F-35 catching fire..well he is my guess. Automation, to much of it can be a bad thing.

The older generation Dash-8 and Bae-146 aircraft we used to have where manual start. Select engine, hit start button, 10% engine rpm fuel on to start position, engine lights off, watch turbine temp like a hawk as engine rpm increases, starter cut off at 50%, if turbine temp goes past 840 and is still climbing quickly, abort start. Fuel off, ignition off, engage starter for at least 15 seconds, keep an eye on turbine temp make sure it is falling. Starter engagement keeps air flowing through the engine and clears excess fuel.(blows out fire if there is one in tail pipe)

Don't quote me on the number's it been awhile since I ran one, long while.

New generation Aircraft Like our CRJ-700, select engine, press start. End of story. Totally computerized start control. Sit back and watch.

I suspect the F-35 is the same, press start and it fires up itself to ground idle. If computers don't work right bad stuff happens.... as you cant intervene.
Think he had a severe hot start that got way out of control.

Like I said only a guess, very limited info to go on.

[panasonic]

Just replied,,,gone to penalty box for some reason....third time this week.

[panasonic]

Accidents and near accidents make one wonder.

An Air Canada flight was recently on approach into San Francisco. There are two parallel runways, side by side. Lights were out on the left runway given that the runway was out of service for repairs/maintenance. To the right of the right runway was a taxiway with four airplanes waiting their turn for take off.

The Air Canada airplane lined up on the taxiway. Guess he thought it was the right runway. He asked if he was cleared to land because he thought he saw lights on his runway. Some unknown voice of reason shouted out "you are lined up to land on the taxiway". He did a go around. They are now wondering if the voice had not been heard would he have landed on the taxiway with four airplanes on it.

Would have been messy.

Getting back to the Fitzgerald, it does make you wonder. Folks on the bridge who's sole job it was to stay out of the way of others. Looks like the freighter had the right of way, but even if not the Navy ship was much nimbler and could have easily gotten out of the way. One for the books.

He reportedly went over the first aircraft on the taxiway at 100 feet...then started climbing. Oh boy someone going to the penalty box for that...

I don't know how that could have happened in this day and age. Same thing with the US frigate...how can that happen?

You would think anything that got closer than a couple miles to that thing, everybody would be losing their minds over it! Many, many alarms would be sounding...not mention the bridge look out's...Somebody going to the penalty box for that as well.

[rodbolt17]

was not a frigate.
was a 51 class DDG.
DDG51 plank owner.
built to fight and you better know how.

[panasonic]

was not a frigate.
was a 51 class DDG.
DDG51 plank owner.
built to fight and you better know how.

OK destroyer. Never the less many people on both ships screwed up big time...and people lost their lives from it.

[rodbolt17]

some folks navel carrears are over.
first rule is not to allow yourself to get whacked nor whack another.

had that air Canada jet landed on the taxi-way it would have most likely been the worst air disaster in aviation history.

[pstephens46]

some folks navel carrears are over.
first rule is not to allow yourself to get whacked nor whack another.

had that air Canada jet landed on the taxi-way it would have most likely been the worst air disaster in aviation history.

Maybe. Tenerife was pretty bad though...