Intermittent Crank / No-Crank issue

[oldmako69]

Two 2004 F225's with 180 hours on each. The boat and engines have been stored inside for most of their lives and are spotless under the cowl.

I bought it last fall and have run it approx 40 hours since then. The Starboard engine is flawless under all conditions.

The Port engine is possessed and has a few issues. I will address one of them here. Namely, about 50 percent of the time, the starter will not engage.

The 2 batteries are fine and the Starboard engines always cranks,

The anodes and connections at them are clean.

Two battery selector switches. OFF/1/BOTH/2 variety. I have NOT pulled them and checked for corrosion at their terminals...yet.

The large 12V connector at the starter is as new. No corrosion.

I pulled the starter and took it to a local reman shop. They benched tested it and said that its fine with no issues...."Looks brand new in and out" was his comment. He suggested the relay.

I replaced the relay. The connectors were spotless.

I then hooked up a test light to the relay, the right side always ON, the left is ONLY on when the relay signals the starter and as the starter spins. That should be obvious I suppose. BUT, every time I turn the key the relay will CLICK but only sometimes does the starter engage. When it does not, there's a click and the test bulb is not powered. Why is this?

Someone has added a remote start switch on the engine utilizing a jumper and a push button switch. It does not look like YAM did this at the factory. The engine will ALWAYS crank using this remote switch. Always. Thinking that perhaps this was the culprit, I removed it. No change. I still only get a crank about half the time. What could be causing this?

***I also have an issue with the low pressure lift pump not keeping the VST full, well, at least that's what I THINK is happening. About one half of the time, the engine does not like prolonged idle (no wake zone) and will cut out. I re-prime the squeeze bulb and it fires right up and off we go. I keep it above 1200 rpm and throttle the other back to idle (to keep my wake down) to keep it running. I mention this because of the ground.

I understand that the lift pump runs part time and is always HOT, but grounded by the ECU.

Is it possible that I have a wonky ground somewhere?

Because, In the most inaccessible spot imaginable (deep in the bilge) there are 3 large electrical connections from the engines bolted together. There are large gauge leads coming from the engines and they are bolted up here. Today I am going to TRY and access them, pull them apart and thoroughly clean them and give them a light coat of dielectric grease. They appear dirty. Could lousy grounding be at the root of all this crap?

Regarding the low rpm stalling issue, I have -

Changed the Racor, first stage and F Filter, I'm running fresh gas.
Pulled the VST (it was spotless), changed its screen,
Swapped the in-line check valves below the F filter,
Added new Yam squeeze bulbs, trimmed and re-clamped all the fuel lines,
Checked the 2 pins on the lift pump connector,
Checked the 3 pins on the (R, R/Y, R/Y) other fuel pump / injector connector.

I know this was a lot to read, but I hope to spare you from asking questions and to give the best info possible.

Any leads or advice is appreciated. I have been scouring Google for advice and that's how I found this forum. Thanks in advance.

Steve

[rodbolt17]

any air leaks, especially corrosion on the racor type filter head, will give you that low speed stall issue.
also the lift pump check/relief vavle will do it.
as to the relay.
it is just that.
one side is hot all the time waiting for the control signal.
make sure the control signal ground path is good.
make sure the control signal is good.
make sure the red lead stays at 12V .

[oldmako69]

Thanks for the quick reply.

WRT the relay, I understand its function and that one side is hot. Why does it only signal the starter half the time? It clicks every time. All of its connections are clean and tight. My feeble mind says that if it clicks, then the signal sent from the key is solid. I must be missing something, or as it slowly fails, this is a tell.

It's leads are brown and black. I'll triple check them.


Regarding air leaks, I'm lost. I pulled the racor element and ensured that the cast head of the unit is smooth and free from any pitting, crud etc. The gasket is brand new and the element is screwed tight.

I have trimmed ALL the fuel line ends and added new clamps. I've swapped the fuel supply from one engine to other (using the outflow port on the racors) The problem does not follow to the other side, it stays on the left.

I'd like to check the lift pump check valve you mentioned. Is that the one just below the F Filter? I have already swapped them left to right with no change. Or, is it elsewhere? I just found a post of yours which states "the valve in question is located between the VST inlet and the lift pump intake". Is that the culprit?

THANKS

[fairdeal]

I replaced the relay. The connectors were spotless.

I then hooked up a test light to the relay, the right side always ON, the left is ONLY on when the relay signals the starter and as the starter spins. That should be obvious I suppose. BUT, every time I turn the key the relay will CLICK but only sometimes does the starter engage. When it does not, there's a click and the test bulb is not powered.

This is the relay you replaced?



What you are describing is the classic symptom of a relay that needs to be replaced:
the magnet moves (hence the click) but the internal contact surfaces are "burned"
and do not reliably conduct electricity

So its baffling that the new relay made no difference....

[fairdeal]

this is the "check valve" (pressure regulator) that Rodbolt refers to -
sounds like you've already swapped that between engines

[oldmako69]

That's it.

I might just swap the port / stbd engines relays out and see if the problem follows to the other side.

It sounds like a bad relay to me as well, hence my utter confusion. I probably bought a bad relay.

And, yes, that's the check valve. This was suggested to my by A.M. @ SIM. That was one of the very first things I did. The stalling issue showed up during the first few hours and has been around ever since. Some days it never shows. Other days it's a constant ordeal. I do a lot of run and gun fishing, and this week, whale watching. So, its been a constant pain.

[fairdeal]

In the most inaccessible spot imaginable (deep in the bilge) there are 3 large electrical connections from the engines bolted together. There are large gauge leads coming from the engines and they are bolted up here. Today I am going to TRY and access them, pull them apart and thoroughly clean them and give them a light coat of dielectric grease. They appear dirty. Could lousy grounding be at the root of all this crap?

You can't go wrong making that effort.

"I would think" that a poor ground would manifest itself in weak cranking - perhaps not.
Certainly you need a good ground at every point where you want current to flow.

3 wires? is that the main (-) cable from each engine, with the third wire then going to the batteries?
must be more connections at the batteries...

and don't neglect where the (-) bolts to the engine block -

although I assume you've had that on & off several times now, what with removing the air silencer...

[oldmako69]

Correct. Unfortunately, I can get that intake off in a flash now!

Previous boat was a single engine inboard with a simple dual batt setup.

This one is two and two and I have yet to figure out the logic of the batt switching. I've got too many other issues jamming by cranium at this time. Will get to them eventually as I like to be fastidious with my electrons. Since my boat is on the water I learned long ago that there is zero room for corrosion on boat wiring. Since I can't afford new boats, I have chased down a thousand gremlins that were simply a grounding issues. At some point, I will pull both selectors and try and wrap my head around the wiring.

I'll get to those connectors in the bilge today and will try and snap a pic, because it LOOKS as though there is a POS to NEG connection in there. Makes no sense to me. I just don't know why they'd put this connection in such a lousy spot. I am convinced that this boat was plumbed and wired with the cap OFF of the to facilitate assembly. The cap was then added. As a result, I have two bilge pumps which will require me to add a hatch (!) in order to access and service.

The head holding tank will be nearly impossible to service.

[pstephens46]

Correct. Unfortunately, I can get that intake off in a flash now!

Previous boat was a single engine inboard with a simple dual batt setup.

This one is two and two and I have yet to figure out the logic of the batt switching. I've got too many other issues jamming by cranium at this time. Will get to them eventually as I like to be fastidious with my electrons. Since my boat is on the water I learned long ago that there is zero room for corrosion on boat wiring. Since I can't afford new boats, I have chased down a thousand gremlins that were simply a grounding issues. At some point, I will pull both selectors and try and wrap my head around the wiring.

I'll get to those connectors in the bilge today and will try and snap a pic, because it LOOKS as though there is a POS to NEG connection in there. Makes no sense to me. I just don't know why they'd put this connection in such a lousy spot. I am convinced that this boat was plumbed and wired with the cap OFF of the to facilitate assembly. The cap was then added. As a result, I have two bilge pumps which will require me to add a hatch (!) in order to access and service.

The head holding tank will be nearly impossible to service.

I have the same type connections in my bilge and that was exactly where my my cranking issue originated. Bad connection means not enough amps to crank. Click! Take it all apart and clean it. My first mistake was looking at it and determining all was good and tight.....It needed to come apart and be cleaned. You can search on this forum for voltage drop testing, it has been discussed many times....

[oldmako69]

Thanks for that. I'll need an extra elbow to get to it, and really really tiny hands. It's a horrid design / manufacturing flaw. "Build it fast, and get it in the showroom". Eff maintenance. Just like my expensive Kitchenaid appliances and much of the other junk made in the US these days.

I hope by some miracle, that the ground issue is also interfering with the switching for the lift pump, though I think that is one hell of a stretch and I'd be better off buying a lottery ticket.

[pstephens46]

I am upside down to work on my bilge area connection. So my glasses fall off. But I can get to my bilge pump......

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That's it.

I might just swap the port / stbd engines relays out and see if the problem follows to the other side.

It sounds like a bad relay to me as well, hence my utter confusion. I probably bought a bad relay..

My starter relay (couple years ago), started acting up, same as yours.
You can jump the TWO main terminals at the relay (and bypass the internal contacts for testing).

I would get the occasional "click" and no crank.

Once I replaced the relay, I cut up the original. The click means the coil internally IS energizing BUT, the contacts were crappy.

Here's a pic of the "arc'ed up" (worn/burnt) contacts (you can see the other side was ok):

[oldmako69]

Nice carving! Many thanks.

Spent the day cleaning the battery to engine terminals in the bilge. Bumped the starter a dozen times and it worked each time. So, I'll run the boat a bit and see if I've fixed it, or its just messing with me.

Now, on to the fuel issues.

These engines only have 180 hours since new (2004 engines on a 2005 boat) and I can believe that the relay is bunged up already. But, stranger things have happened.

[TownsendsFJR1300]

These engines only have 180 hours since new (2004 engines on a 2005 boat) and I can believe that the relay is bunged up already. But, stranger things have happened.

That's about the hours on my engine when that relay failed. It currently has 204 hours on the engine so it's NOT unusual.

BTW, that relay is VERY stout, (not s much the contacts). Took me probably 15 minutes with an air grinder to get it apart.

That pic (the nut) IS one of the contact screws that your larger wires bolt to...

[oldmako69]

Cleaning the battery to engine connectors in the bilge seems to have solved the starting issue. I'll know after the next 50 or so starts.

Now, on to the idle issue.