Testing/Acquiring older Yamaha 150 68F-13761-00-00 INJECTORS

[pstephens46]

And the old injectors are nowhere to be found....

[LedShiplen]

You guys all deserve lots of beers.

First, the mechanic is just like you. He doesn't even want me to spend another dime. He told me 10 times to not spend 2800 on new injectors and just get another motor. He's pretty adamant that while the motor only has 325 hours, he wouldn't drop upwards of 4K after buying injectors an IA ETC. But, I'm thrifty and I know I can do it for less. Read on.

Recap: Motor was having fuel issues. Mechanic diagnosed, determined all 6 injectors were shorted (injectors had a resistance reading between one of the electrical pins to the injector body). Told me the metal injector body is now in contact with the aluminum of the cylinder head, thus connecting it to engine ground. Although hard to believe, apparently it is possible for the engine to run with the injectors this way, mine does run this way, and mine is not the only motor the mechanic has seen with this condition. While it does not make logical sense that the engine could even run this way, it is.

Then I posed the question and so did others, that if all 6 are shorted, why? Might be a bigger issue. So the dealer rep was contacted and stated that the injector assembly, while still functional, may send out a varied voltage that could fry the injectors and vise versa (more detail previously in this thread). and it was recommended by yamaha to replace the IA or the 6 replaced injectors will likely fry too.

Heres what Ive done: Cleaned out the VST, replaced a few fuel lines and filters and am waiting for 6 rehabbed injectors to come back from BrucatoFIS. Finding/buying/rehabbing 6 non shorted injectors can be done for under 400.00. I haven't spent more than a grand on all repairs. Yet.

The smart thing (in my humble, non mechanic, but play it safe, opinion) is to install a new IA which can be had for 1200 including install. No sense in installing a used one which could also come from an engine with failed injectors.

Or go cheap and risky and just install the 6 rehabbed ones, run the motor, test the injectors after a few hours and see if they've fried. IF THEY HAVENT FRIED, you are all mechanical gods. If they've fried, then you are all wrong and I'm out 400 bucks. You learn, I lose. Which would mean 6 more rehabbed injectors, and then getting an IA. And THEN pop MYself in the head with a hammer a few times.

[pstephens46]

Ok. At least post the name of this mechanic, the name of the business and location. I think we will all sleep better with this info. Plus Rodbolt might like to speak with him.

[rodbolt17]

I still don't belive all six shorted .
your simply not going to tell me the power transformers in the driver all failed at the same time.
remember that "single" driver actually contains six step up transformers and the voltage is switched by transistors.
in essence you have 6 drivers in a single heat sink.

that BIG finned aluminium thing is a heat sink.

if the resistance is in the high Kohms or mega ohms it is not s hort.

I dunno who the rep is but he is crazy.

if you suspect erratic voltage why not simply test the driver output voltage?
it is incredibly simple and only requires removing the plastic covers to access the injector connectors.
no need to unclip them even.

1200 bucks would buy me a nice Venezuelan FN-49 or several mausers or an 1895 Winchester chambered in 7.62x54R.
or a few bottles of decent likker .

I am thinking your tech does not have much experience with HPDI.

knowing the Z motor? I would never put a 1200 dollar part on it.

the problem with a short to ground is the injector simply would not fire if the current path did not go through the coil in the injector.
in order for that device to work you must have a current path through the coil.

now the injector filters can clog and cause poor running as can the non-field serviceable filters in the HP pump.

I chat with various techs at school in Kennasaw, it is amazing how some think the F115 is a big motor and have never worked on an HPDI nor the big FV6 or V8 motors.

but they see a lot of stuff in the 2.5-115 range.

[boscoe99]

You guys all deserve lots of beers.

It is better to have the bottle in front of me than to have a frontal lobotomy.

Your mechanic is a candidate for the frontal lobotomy.

[pstephens46]

Maybe we explain this way....First of all, your mechanic is NOT like us. We do not have any financial interest in your situation, period. We are not after your wallet. I hate to come across as browbeating or a D__k head. These other guys(not me) have dozens of years in this business. One being a Yamaha Master Tech. Just trying to help dude. Hate to waste beverage coin, as Rodbolt says. (The Master Tech)

[cpostis]

I vote for a real mokanik.

one with a minimum of fuel system,electrical systems and advanced trouble shooting certs on the wall.
if they don't have them pack your toy and run away.

a master tech certificate on the wall would be even better.

So, what certifications, if any,does this so called "mechanic" have. I would request this from the dealer. If not minimum with what Rodbolt suggests, get another mechanic that does.
Attached is list of current "Yamaha Certified Master Mechanics". Link is Yamaha's website to search for dealerships by classification.
Is your dealer amongst them?

Service | Yamaha Outboards

[LedShiplen]

UPDATE: The injector driver tested out at 90 volts, consistently, to each injector. My understanding is thats a good thing. Based on that, I'm not (currently) installing a new injector driver.

The rehabbed injectors go in friday.

Meanwhile I watched the mechanic test out the "bad" injectors again. How he did it: With the old injectors still installed, he put a meter lead on the body of each injector and then a lead to an injector connection. Every one (6), ohmed out at 13-15 ohms which as I understand it, is shorted. It was explained that the short isnt so bad that it will blow a fuse, but bad enough that eventually each injector would completely short, blow a fuse and fry the injector driver assembly.

Make sense?

[pstephens46]

This is the answer from an expert:

"Resistance between two connector pins should be 1.2 to 1.3ohm with dvm. There should be no continuity between pin connectors to metal body. Test readings below or above the specified resistance indicate injector problem. Shorted out hpdi injectors are uncommon and even more so for all six on the same motor. Failure to the drivers or ecu is possible if in fact injectors are shorted out. The resistance test can be performed without removal of injectors and only take a few minutes."

Rich at BrucatoFIS

Doesn't sound like he followed Rich's advice on testing....

[pstephens46]

You guys all deserve lots of beers.

First, the mechanic is just like you. He doesn't even want me to spend another dime. He told me 10 times to not spend 2800 on new injectors and just get another motor. He's pretty adamant that while the motor only has 325 hours, he wouldn't drop upwards of 4K after buying injectors an IA ETC. But, I'm thrifty and I know I can do it for less. Read on.

Recap: Motor was having fuel issues. Mechanic diagnosed, determined all 6 injectors were shorted (injectors had a resistance reading between one of the electrical pins to the injector body). Told me the metal injector body is now in contact with the aluminum of the cylinder head, thus connecting it to engine ground. Although hard to believe, apparently it is possible for the engine to run with the injectors this way, mine does run this way, and mine is not the only motor the mechanic has seen with this condition. While it does not make logical sense that the engine could even run this way, it is.

Then I posed the question and so did others, that if all 6 are shorted, why? Might be a bigger issue. So the dealer rep was contacted and stated that the injector assembly, while still functional, may send out a varied voltage that could fry the injectors and vise versa (more detail previously in this thread). and it was recommended by yamaha to replace the IA or the 6 replaced injectors will likely fry too.

Heres what Ive done: Cleaned out the VST, replaced a few fuel lines and filters and am waiting for 6 rehabbed injectors to come back from BrucatoFIS. Finding/buying/rehabbing 6 non shorted injectors can be done for under 400.00. I haven't spent more than a grand on all repairs. Yet.

The smart thing (in my humble, non mechanic, but play it safe, opinion) is to install a new IA which can be had for 1200 including install. No sense in installing a used one which could also come from an engine with failed injectors.

Or go cheap and risky and just install the 6 rehabbed ones, run the motor, test the injectors after a few hours and see if they've fried. IF THEY HAVENT FRIED, you are all mechanical gods. If they've fried, then you are all wrong and I'm out 400 bucks. You learn, I lose. Which would mean 6 more rehabbed injectors, and then getting an IA. And THEN pop MYself in the head with a hammer a few times.

How did he test them if Brucato is rehabbing them? Or are they already rehabbed? Which injectors did he test?

[LedShiplen]

The rehabbed injectors are in the mail, coming from Rich, they were obtained via a 3rd party, ebay etc, tested fine. The tests on the existing, in the motor were performed exactly how Rich stated. Pin to pin and pin to Body. Pin to body showed 13-15 ohms. Capiche?

[cpostis]

$377 at boats.net. Times six equals $2262.00.

2002 LZ150TXRA Yamaha Outboard FUEL INJECTION NOZZLE Diagram and Parts

This can be a diy'r installation for 0 dollars.

Three bits of advice.

Find a new mechanic.

Find a new mechanic.

Find a new mechanic.

How about $22.58 ea? 10 pc minimum, so $225.80 for 10. From what I researched, these are the same OE injectors Yamaha sells, from the same manufacturer?

https://gzhaoxiang.en.alibaba.com/pr...7T25071.html#!

[LedShiplen]

How about $22.58 ea? 10 pc minimum, so $225.80 for 10. From what I researched, these are the same OE injectors Yamaha sells, from the same manufacturer?

https://gzhaoxiang.en.alibaba.com/pr...7T25071.html#!

I saw this too. These are Mitsubishi injectors meant for a car. BUT, the E7T number is the same as the one on my injector body. I've reached out to a few manufactures to confirm if they are the same specs for Yamaha and nobody knows or refuses to say. Even the manufacturers who have claimed they are the same (in advertisements) wont confirm via email. Next steps would be to purchase and send to a US based injector expert for flow/electric testing. But yes, I CONCUR!

[LedShiplen]

You were ALL RIGHT. Not a single injector on my motor was shorted.

There was a significant lack of communication from Yamaha to the dealer. UPDATE: FROM THE MECHANIC: "The injectors that you provided, and have now been installed in your motor showed no continuity between either pin and the injector body prior to installation. After running the engine, the same test shows .005-.007 ohms resistance between either pin and the injector body. Yamaha considers this normal, and acceptable. According to Yamaha, the presence of fuel in the injector will create a minuscule resistance reading between the pins and injector body."

It was previously understood that there should be NO resistance at all between the PINs and the Injector body. That, apparently was wrong! I wasted no money. Didnt buy a single un-needed part. All injectors were rehabbed and installed, which was money well spent. THANK YOU ALL. NOW GLOAT!

[99yam40]

You were ALL RIGHT. Not a single injector on my motor was shorted.

There was a significant lack of communication from Yamaha to the dealer. UPDATE: FROM THE MECHANIC: "The injectors that you provided, and have now been installed in your motor showed no continuity between either pin and the injector body prior to installation. After running the engine, the same test shows .005-.007 ohms resistance between either pin and the injector body. Yamaha considers this normal, and acceptable. According to Yamaha, the presence of fuel in the injector will create a minuscule resistance reading between the pins and injector body."

It was previously understood that there should be NO resistance at all between the PINs and the Injector body. That, apparently was wrong! I wasted no money. Didnt buy a single un-needed part. All injectors were rehabbed and installed, which was money well spent. THANK YOU ALL. NOW GLOAT!

the less ohms the more shorted to ground they would be.
the higher the ohms the more resistance there is so less of a short.
hard to believe fuel has that much conductivity to bring the resistance down that far.
but what do I know, I never tested one with fuel or without

The originals tested like this from what you said " Every one (6), ohmed out at 13-15 ohms which as I understand it, is shorted"

Maybe mech was saying megohms not ohms