Still Leaking T&Trim seals on 2005 250 4 strokes

[mailman1]

Maybe Yamaha has some kind of special tool. I looked through the special tool section in my Yamaha Service Manual that I ordered, but there was no mention of a special tool for tilt and trim......... I will double check it again. and I will go back to the drawing to see how that seal goes in.
Thanks to you both!

[Nautical]

I think Yamaha is vague on servicing details is because they do not make the Trim /Tilt mechanism. Its manufactured by another company in which Yamaha buys it from and uses it on their motors..so whatever the supplier gives Yamaha for details which is skimpy all Yamaha does is cut and paste the info in their service manual.Whenever you go 3rd party details get skimpier and skimpier.Its up to Yamaha to get the correct info, but these things are not complicated once you get them apart, but don't score up anything and just be careful and clean.

[rodbolt17]

no need to remove the piston from the ram on the trim cyl.
not sure its possible.
you have to remove the piston from the ram to service the tilt ram.

[mailman1]

I have ordered a complete Tilt assembly and 2 new piston and cap assemblies for my Trim from my Yamaha Dealer............. They will be my wife's Christmas presents this year and MAYBE my reason for her leaving me......................................STILL I am going to fix my Tilt and Trim!! :-(

[rodbolt17]

ouch.

Yamaha is rather proud of those parts.

if the cyl bores are scuffed your going to be disappointed.

[boscoe99]

I think Yamaha is vague on servicing details is because they do not make the Trim /Tilt mechanism. Its manufactured by another company in which Yamaha buys it from and uses it on their motors..so whatever the supplier gives Yamaha for details which is skimpy all Yamaha does is cut and paste the info in their service manual.Whenever you go 3rd party details get skimpier and skimpier.Its up to Yamaha to get the correct info, but these things are not complicated once you get them apart, but don't score up anything and just be careful and clean.

Yamaha is vague on everything related to servicing details. Vague is the best possible way to describe Yamaha data.

A few photos, some torque values or electrical specifications, and there you have it.

If Yamaha were to have quality service data for their own stuff (which they don't) they would mandate that the makers of subcontracted parts (trim and tilt unit for example) provide quality data. Which they don't.

Yamaha can't even properly express torque values. Ever seen a correction to a Yamaha service manual? You won't. They don't even bother to correct known errors.

Great craftsmanship.
Good engineering.
Pathetic documentation.

Don't believe me? Look at a Mercury Marine service manual. Then look at Yamaha's crap.

Good thing that the overall quality of the motors are acceptable. Only problem is that the relatively few owner's that have to pay for repairs will pay more than they should for those repairs given that Yamaha mechanics don't have the data they need to properly understand a model and how to repair it.

[rodbolt17]

actually some of us Yamaha mo kan ics go to schools.
then we learn and self teach.

that's why the other day I called Yamaha to get the procedure to light the visual oil and overheat warnings on a VF250.
we took off and older Yamaha and installed this VF250 and had to marry the new Yamaha oil warning harness to the ranger computer harness.

I was told it cannot be done with that ECU.
ticked me off.
30 min later with a couple resistors and the service manual I made both work and verified the visual system worked correctly.

difference twixt a mokanik and a technician.

that's also how I know on the F250 trim system that only uses dust wipers that if they leak its a piston oring sealing issue not a dust wiper issue.

easy way to tell the two systems apart is simply look at the drawing.

if the cap has a seal or oring/backup ring under the dust wiper it uses pressure on both sides of the piston for up and down.

if the cap only has a dust wiper its not supposed to have fluid pressure above the piston.
if the piston oring leaks you have pressure then the wiper leaks cause its not designed for containing pressurized fluid.

yep its that simple.

nope its not taught in service schools.

it is taught in a few hydraulic manuals and such.

then you also have to be curious.
why don't all systems use an oring/seal on the shaft below the wiper?

a simple study of the oil flow diagram will show you.

[boscoe99]

actually some of us Yamaha mo kan ics go to schools.
then we learn and self teach.

that's why the other day I called Yamaha to get the procedure to light the visual oil and overheat warnings on a VF250.
we took off and older Yamaha and installed this VF250 and had to marry the new Yamaha oil warning harness to the ranger computer harness.

I was told it cannot be done with that ECU.
ticked me off.
30 min later with a couple resistors and the service manual I made both work and verified the visual system worked correctly.

difference twixt a mokanik and a technician.

There are hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands and thousands, of bits of knowledge that a few within Yamaha US, and many, many more outside of Yamaha US (mechanics such as yourself) know, but which has never been documented. Generally that knowledge may only be known to just one or two people.

In my never ending dreams of a more perfect world I wish for a system where all that knowledge could be captured and put into a searchable data base that all Yamaha people could access. Alas, there are thousands of Yamaha folks each having at least one bit of great knowledge that will very seldom be shared with the other Yamaha folks.

Actually, this website is the best I have seen for the dissemination of Yamaha knowledge. Knowledge that should be in a searchable Yamaha data base, but which is not. It sure as hell won't be found in a Yamaha service manual.

[rodbolt17]

and you can bet I did not call Kennesaw and explain how to fool the ECU and test the visual indicates.

I know how.

sometimes calling the RTA or whatever they call themselves now, is an exercise in futility that must be done to document a failure.

some of the crap they wish to do is stupidly insane.

I mean when the rotor fails on an F350 why do I need to cut open the oil filter and send pictures?

same as a broken crank or failed thrust bearing on a 4.2L

both are well known failures.

both will require a minimum of new heads,possibly new cam sprocket assy's,new block assy and the oil sump cleaned and the strainer replaced.

but sometimes one must jump through the hoops.

[mailman1]

I am getting a much better understanding of how Yamahas work............... They are built well, meant to run for a while and need to belong to people like us that seem to find more and more Yamaha Owners that just will not give up on fixing "OUR" babies..... I am truly glad I found this web site and you guys... :-)

[rodbolt17]

I just wished you had asked how to remove the tilt piston BEFORE pipe wrenching it.
would have saved ya some jacksons.

[mailman1]

This reminds me of spankings when I was a kid!!!!!!!!!! I will not do that AGAIN!! :-) My Parris Island Drill Instructor of LONG LONG ago said YOU Cannot fix stupid....... I LEARN!

[Nautical]

I mean when the rotor fails on an F350 why do I need to cut open the oil filter and send pictures?

That's generally because they use unskilled labor to cut their operating costs. These employees are trained to follow a flow chart on a particular problem before they issue instructions. Sometimes the flow chart makes sense and sometimes it doesn't depending on the situation. We seem to be a computer world where as thinking is becoming more and more obsolete.

[mailman1]

Thanks for the advise!!!! I probably will not do 20 years worth of doing Tilt and Trim!!!! :-(
Too much fun for these 20 Years.

[boscoe99]

I mean when the rotor fails on an F350 why do I need to cut open the oil filter and send pictures?

That's generally because they use unskilled labor to cut their operating costs. These employees are trained to follow a flow chart on a particular problem before they issue instructions. Sometimes the flow chart makes sense and sometimes it doesn't depending on the situation. We seem to be a computer world where as thinking is becoming more and more obsolete.

They are looking to see what, if any, internal damage has occurred due to the rotor failing. Might be bearing materials in the oil filter or not.

But yes, cheaper labor (Yamaha USA call center employees) are being used to collect data that higher paid labor (reliability and design engineers in Japan) will assess to determine the modes of failures. Using that data hopefully design improvements can be made.

The collectors of the data might not understand the need for the data but the manufacturer employees do.

Same thing happens when an air liner part fails. The air line mechanic has to gather and report data to AirBus or Boeing. The mechanic might not understand the need for the data to be collected but the authorities and the air craft makers do.