Automatic oil transfer issue

[spinkick63]

Hello all

This will be a long post. Sorry. Some will complain about it. Sorry. It was one long post or several short ones.

This is mainly directed at boscoe99 and rodbolt17. Gents, you both tried to help someone almost 10 years ago on this site with exactly the same problem (https://www.yamahaoutboardparts.com/...04-hpdi-200-hp). Unfortunately, that original poster never acknowledged the final solution. A LOT of what I've tried to do to figure this out comes from that topic along with a couple of other sites (BBC and THT in particular). A few folks have chimed in (most helpful, a few not) and I'm still stuck here hoping it is not the ECU. I truly get that they RARELY fail so I'm still clinging to that. Please let me start off by showing everything (that I can recall) that I have done so far. PLEASE point out ANYTHING I've overlooked.

I get it that it is a simple 4-switch system, but this system isn't playing nice.

The engine: 2007 Yamaha VZ250TLR HPDI on a 2007 Skeeter 20i (FWIW, I have owned the boat for 2 years)

The situation: Motor runs fine for 30 minutes or so then goes into RPM reduction mode three flashing bars on the gauge with audible alarm. I pull the cowling and engage the emergency switch and the main tank fills up quickly. I'm back in business. I am convinced this is NOT an oil flow issue but an electronic one.

The owner's manual says 3 flashing bars with alarm is battery or oil flow blockage. Battery is new with secure connections and no corrosion. The filter on the remote tank is new. Removed and cleaned and pushed compressed air through it. Tank was drained as well. Oil was clean. No sludge anywhere. Boscoe/rodbolt, one of you said (in the above mentioned post):

a quick test, simply drain the engine tank, turn the key ON.
look at the tach.
you should have an audible and 3 bars flashing.

This is what I see.

I verified the oil sensors were good:

Main oil level assembly:
Upper float:
Up: Blue/green open, blue/white closed
Down: Blue/green closed, blue/white open
Lower float:
Up: Blue/red open (both)
Down: Blue/red closed (both)
(I've since learned these are called SW1, SW2, SW3)

Remote oil level assembly (black and black/red):
Up: Closed
Down: Open


ECU pins to harness (values in ohms):

pin 21 - black/red: 0.9
pin 24 - yellow: 0.0
pin 17 - blue/white: 0.7
pin 18 - blue/green: 0.4
pin 4 - blue/red (1/2): 0.4
pin 5 - blue/red (2/2): 0.0
pin 9 - black to 10-pin connector: 0.9
pin 9 ground test with black jumpered to black/red WITHOUT 4-wire remote harness: 0.2
pin 9 ground test with black jumpered to black/red WITH 4-wire remote harness: 2.0 <-- problematic???
pin 20 - blue to emergency switch: 0.0
pin 20 - blue to test port: 0.0
pin 20 - blue to remote connector (engine side): 0.0

Remote oil harness (engine side):
yellow (pin 24) good
blue (direct to emergency switch) good
black/red (pin 21) good
black (engine ground) – good

Someone suggested these tests as well:

Tank-end of oil harness tests:
Test 1:
1. Jumper black to black/red
2. Test light across blue and brown
3. Key on
4. Turn on emergency switch
5. Light comes on

Test 2:
1. Jumper black to black/red
2. Test light across blue and brown
3. Remove main oil level sensor position floats in up position
4. Start engine (idle)
5. Move upper float downward
6. Light does NOT come on <-- not expected result

Some other things in no particular order and information because of other posts/responses:

• Emergency switch works and pump refills main tank quickly
• Verified no corrosion on both engine grounds for the engine harness; in fact, no corrosion on the motor anywhere
• Confirmed continuity from remote end of oil harness (4-wire) to engine ground. Resistance < 1 ohm (black wire)
• Confirmed continuity from main oil level assembly plug (5-wire) to engine ground. Resistance < 1 ohm (black wire)
• Oil pump is new
• Remote, inline oil filter is new. Removed, drained, pushed compressed air
• Main oil line from remote tank to main tank is new. Old oil line did have some type of sludge in it but no blockage
• Drained remote oil tank. No sludge present. Pushed compress air and oil exit port into the tank
• Battery is new with secure connections and no corrosion
• I have a Yamaha service manual for VZ250/VZ225 (LIT-18616-VZ-20). There's no mention of the oil system in it. It has wiring diagrams in the back (quite helpful).
• I have a copy of "Oil transfer pump troubleshooting chart". I'm literally at the box that says "OHM test the engine wiring harness" then "Replace the control unit". Not where I want to be.

I do have YDS. Here are just the pertinent results. I can provide everything if needed:

Oil level switch (remote tank)			ON
Oil level switch1(engine tank)			OFF
Oil level switch2(engine tank)			ON
Oil level switch3(engine tank)			OFF
Water temp switch (overheat)			OFF

Battery voltage (12-16)

13.99

V

I'm not a Yamaha mechanic but I see "remote tank full" and "I need more oil" above. True?

Apparently I failed to write down voltage checks on blue and brown for the remote harness with the key on. I will have to share that later.

I can also provide pictures of anything that could be useful in figuring this out.

Please, somebody tell me what I am missing or failing to do. On another site someone said I was "running in circles" and "not checking connections" without referring to which connections to check. Stuff like that is not helpful. I would not be posting if I didn't truly need the help. Thank you in advance to anyone that can tell me the error in my efforts.

[spinkick63]

Additional tests...

Confirming voltage on remote harness:

1. Key on
2. 12.25 V on brown
3. ~13 mV on blue
4. engage emergency switch
5. voltage drops to 0 on blue

Confirm tach behavior

Remote oil tank connected:
1. Turn on key
2. Left, Center, Right bars all flash once then remain solid

Remote oil tank disconnected:
1. Turn on key
2. L,C,R bars all flash once
3. R bar goes off
4. C bar continues to flash

This matches exactly with the owner's manual.

Another test I had not done yet... Initial tank fill:

1. Hook up volt meter to blue test port and engine ground
2. Get reference voltage before draining main tank: ~12.2V
3. Drain main tank (main tank empty, remote tank full)
4. Turn on key
5. Alarm sounds; three flashing bars on tach
6. PUMP DOES NOT GET TURNED ON! Voltage remains at about 12.2V
7. After waiting about 30 seconds, engage emergency switch
8. Voltage drops to 0
9. Pump engages and fills the tank until I stopped it.

It is starting to sound a lot like the most expensive option it can be... ECU? Please convince me otherwise!

Afterthought:

The blue wire follows this path:

[ECU pin 20] --------------- [emergency switch] --------------- [flash port] --------------- [remote tank connector]
.......................^
I could interrupt here (inline tap) to watch voltage as close to pin 20 as I can get. If successful, it would mean despite continuity between pin 20 and switch, there's an issue with the wire. Worth the effort?

[99yam40]

is there an oil module on this motor or is it part of the ECU?

I think some motors will keep the auto transfer from happening if the motor is tilted up or at least it thinks the motor is tilted up.
also if the system thinks the remote tank is low it will keep auto transfer from happening

[spinkick63]

Based on everything I have read, this model is not dependent on the tilt of the motor. I'm pretty sure it's in the ECU. However, I was wrong once before on a Monday.

With that, the motor is always down and the tilt gauge on the tach displays correctly.

[spinkick63]

Final test... I put an in-line tap as close to ECU pin 20 (blue) as I could get. I put the engine in "initial fill" mode and turned on the key. The ECU is NOT pulling the blue wire to ground.
blue wire.jpg
Any last thoughts to rule out the ECU? YDS has seemed to rule out connectors and wires.

[panasonic]

All I have to say after reading your post is you have done alot of troubleshooting for sure. You have done many continuity and voltage tests, which have there place in trouble shooting. But just because a wire shows continuity and you can get battery voltage on it doesn't mean it can carry current. I like to use a test light or home made test light from a taillight bulb or for higher current a halogen headlight bulb.

I dont know how much current it takes to run that oil transfer pump, not to much I would say. Something to think about.

[spinkick63]

I didn't expand on it much, but there was a test where the remote tank was removed. Test light placed across brown and blue. Jumpered black to black red on the harness. With the emergency switch, it lit up. It would not light up in the "initial fill" fill configuration (empty main tank).

[spinkick63]

Tried searching for this but didn't get much... what are ALL the things that could inhibit the automatic transfer? For sure...
1. No, or not enough, oil in remote tank
2. Ground over B/R not getting back to ECU pin 21
3....

[boscoe99]

Not enough oil in the remote tank causes the float to lower. To the point where the sensor switch opens. Stopping the ECU from sensing the ground signal.

An open wiring fault would cause the ECU to not see the ground. Fooling it into thinking there is no oil in the remote tank. Inhibiting the auto transfer of oil.

[boscoe99]

If the ground from switch SW2 can not make its way to the ECU then the ECU does not know to turn on the remote oil tank pump.

[spinkick63]

Not enough oil in the remote tank causes the float to lower. To the point where the sensor switch opens. Stopping the ECU from sensing the ground signal.
An open wiring fault would cause the ECU to not see the ground. Fooling it into thinking there is no oil in the remote tank. Inhibiting the auto transfer of oil.
. . . If the ground from switch SW2 can not make its way to the ECU then the ECU does not know to turn on the remote oil tank pump.

.
This a snippet from the YDS report:
.

Oil level switch (remote tank)			ON
Oil level switch1(engine tank)			OFF
Oil level switch2(engine tank)			ON
Oil level switch3(engine tank)			OFF

.
Tell me if I am reading this correctly, YDS sees a closed switch on SWB (enough oil in remote tank). Ground on black/red is complete. YDS also sees SW2 is closed meaning the ground on blue/green is complete (main tank needs oil).

I didn't see anything in your manual snippets regarding "initial fill mode" (empty main, full remote). Several other folks have pointed out this is the only time oil transfer would occur with key on (without engine running). Assuming that is true, is the engine smart enough to know the difference between the "real" initial fill mode" (when boat/engine were new) and a "fake" initial fill mode like I tried to emulate? I got the three flashing bars + alarm when I did that, but the pump never turned on. I have tried this with and without the tank attached. Config without: 12v light across green-blue wires and a jumper from black-black/red wires. This worked with emergency switch. If ECU can tell the load difference between the pump and a light, well... I wasted my time.

I also had the motor running with water hooked up and still had no transfer. I simply can find nothing (wiring/harness/connector/etc) that can explain what's going on. If there's a bright side, the motor is completely functional. I just have to fill it up (emergency switch) after about 30 minutes of near-WOT run time. I'm begging the issue to not be the ECU. They're getting kind of hard to find not to mention the "other" i$$ue with a replacement.

[spinkick63]

Still saying bad words over this. So, let me ask from the ECU perspective. Oil transfer inhibited if...
.
1. ECU doesn't ground the blue wire
2. ECU doesn't detect ground on black/red
3. ECU doesn't detect ground on blue/green
.
Are there any others I missed?

[spinkick63]

Unfortunately, it appears all tests and things point to the ECU.

I'm reaching out to Hydro Tec Marine to see about flashing. If that's a no-go, I'll have to find a new or used ECU.

The question: My ECU is 60x-8591a-23-00. Would there be any issues going to an older revision such as 60x-8591a-22-00 or 60x-8591a-21-00?

[panasonic]

So one last comment. If you have ECU plugged in and you back probe pin 20 (blue wire) and then turn on key there is no ground present? Is that pin in ECU making good contact with plug socket? Have you done a drag test on that plug pin socket? I know you have probably have done this...just don't want you to buy a ECU if not necessary.

[spinkick63]

So one last comment. If you have ECU plugged in and you back probe pin 20 (blue wire) and then turn on key there is no ground present? Is that pin in ECU making good contact with plug socket? Have you done a drag test on that plug pin socket? I know you have probably have done this...just don't want you to buy a ECU if not necessary.

Correct... ish. Assuming my test was valid, what I actually did was put it in "initial fill" configuration (remote tank full, main empty). From all that I have read and what has been explained by the gurus, this would be the only condition that would turn on the pump WITHOUT the motor running. Blue wire never got grounded by the ECU. I have not tried this with motor running. If the ECU is smart enough to know that "initial fill" has already been done, then my test was invalid.

The socket for pin 20 looks to be in the same shape as all others so no concern there.

Not sure what you mean by "drag test". Could you describe? I assure you, I am doing my best to NOT buy another ECU. Yamaha is kinda proud of those things.

There is one thing I thought about today that I don't see in any of my posts that I will try. I have tested the main harness from ECU pin X to device Y for all the oil sensors. I don't think I've tried it from the ECU pins (4, 5, 17, 18 <- especially this one) all the way to ground (with sensor floats in appropriate positions). I've tested from the oil sensor wires (L/W, L/G, L/R x 2) but not from ECU pin to ground. Will try that probably tomorrow.

Thanks for the input!