Tilt/trim stuck--HELP PLEASE!

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Recently, my neighbors 140 Suzuki two stroke would not tilt (power/no movement).

Three guys, while on the boat lift, could NOT raise it (bleeder screw released), atop and from below.

It took my scissor jack, against the front of the LU and the cross brace of the lift to get it to move. The scissor jack is from a Ford, Crown vic..

LU turned out to be just very low on fluid once checked..

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[Jason2tpa]

Actually, Jason, I think he was correct in that he was saying that he should have been able to, at least somewhat, start to pull the engine up using his rope. He was pulling from a good angle to get movement and being in the water doesn't affect that in any way.

He's not remotely correct, respectfully. In order to manually pull the motor up while the boat is submerged, you first must apply enough force to overcome the hull’s dynamic buoyancy factor. And you ain't gonna manually apply enough force to nullify the buoyancy factor of what I assume to a be at minimum a 1/2-1 ton dry weight hull.

Thought experiment that will hopefully provide clarity.....place a buoyant piece of wood or any likewise buoyant material on the surface of water filled in a bowl/bucket/etc. Now take XYZ weight, which is heavy enough to displace water when placed on top of the buoyant material but not too heavy to overcome the material's buoyancy. So now you have a weight on top of a piece of buoyant material that is floating on top of the water inside a bowl/bucket. Now remove the XYZ weight from the buoyant material slow enough to observe how the buoyant material reacts when you begin lifting the weight off.

What you'll observe is as you begin to slowly lift XYZ weight from the buoyant material, this material will 1st gain buoyancy and thus begin rising to the surface of the water. Only then once complete buoyancy of the material has been recouped will the XYZ weight actually be lifted off of the buoyant material.

How does this thought experience apply to this scenario?.....he thinks he's lifting the motor since that is where the force is being applied, but he's actually applying lifting force to the buoyancy factor of the hull. The motor isn't manually raising because his strength alone will not be able to overcome the hull buoyancy factor....hence the stern lifting as he's lifting. And tightly tying up the boat doesn't reduce hull buoyancy, or at least not in this scenario.

[DennisG01]

OK, let's go with this XYZ weight - that's a good way to explain it. But, let's assign a weight to XYZ. For sake of argument, let's say it's 1lb. When that 1lb is set on the wood, the wood would displace 1lb of water (or, very roughly, 16oz), correct? Now how much force would you then have to apply to lift that 1lb weight back off the wood? 1lb. The weight of the wood is inconsequential to removing XYZ. It still only takes 1lb of effort to remove the 1lb XYZ, right? It doesn't take MORE than 1lb of force to remove it, right? Meaning, you could apply .999lbs of lifting force and the only thing that would happen is that the wood would rise. But once you applied 1.0lbs of lifting force, the XYZ would be removed. So if it takes, say 50lbs, of effort to start to lift the engine, why would he not be able to do that?

Also, doesn't "dynamic" bouyancy require some action on behalf of the object (wood/boat) to create such bouyancy?

[smplaxco]

Yes Jason, the physics "hub-bud" as you say is relevant to the question I posed, thanks Dennis for recognizing that. If you read the entire chain you may see why. I find that folks who respond off the cuff to demonstrate how tough and authentic they are usually miss out on some information that could actually be helpful some day.

[TownsendsFJR1300]

It's been 3 days.. Is the motor up yet?

[smplaxco]

Ummm. Interesting responses given this isn't a "physics forum" .

The xyz analogy is off since the weight is not on top of the buoyant object, but distributed along the side and on an axis. The force I'm using is mostly lateral, not vertical, and enhanced by leverage. You're right, if I'm lifting the stern out, some of that will be the response from reducing the verticle load but in this case the motor, if it's free on the axis, should move before the boat lifts out and towards me. If I'm simply displacing the boat I will feel little resistance, which isn't the case. The boat weighs 2 tons but that has nothing to do with any of this.

Scott, thanks for that experience. I think you had resistance still in the system. That brings up a new question: even with the release screw loose, will there continue to be pressure from the hydraulics?

Imagine a 500 lb vertical sea-saw with a 350lb guy sitting on the top and a 150lb guy on the bottom. Can you turn it with a rope tied to the skinny guy's foot ?

[DennisG01]

Scott, thanks for that experience. I think you had resistance still in the system. That brings up a new question: even with the release screw loose, will there continue to be pressure from the hydraulics?

I think it's realistic that there is some type of resistance from the fluid flowing (being forced?) through the system while you lift it. BUT, all I can really tell you here is that I have a 250HP and I can lift it all the way up by myself. It gets easier as you get higher since the powerhead starts to get on the other side of the fulcrum point. It sort of starts easy, then gets harder, then gets easier again.

[smplaxco]

Of course! It starts easy because you're pulling outward, able to get your legs and back into it, has a moment where you shift your hold and your arms are doing most of the work, then eases off as the head succumbs to gravity. physics. I got hydraulic resistance still. I wish it were a matter of weight!

[99yam40]

I guess I do not understand why you want to tilt the motor up while the boat is in the water.
I do not know what your boat looks like, but I do not think you will be able to add any fluid to the T&T due to the water level covering where you need to remove plug and add fluid.
or so close it will not be a good idea

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I guess I do not understand why you want to tilt the motor up while the boat is in the water.
I do not know what your boat looks like, but I do not think you will be able to add any fluid to the T&T due to the water level covering where you need to remove plug and add fluid.
or so close it will not be a good idea

+1 ^^..

Sorry, but I get impatient when I have something on my plate to fix..

Exchange of idea's is fine, but the engine is STILL on the boat in the water. Even if pulled up, you couldn't do anything with it..

As for the Sazuk we worked on, it was VERY low on fluid. I don't believe it still had resistance from fluid but perhaps.
I can tell you it took the jack to get it moving. Once started, about 1' from fully down, we were able to manhandle it up and lock it up (similar set up as the Yamaha) and add fluid...

.

[Jason2tpa]

Yes Jason, the physics "hub-bud" as you say is relevant to the question I posed, thanks Dennis for recognizing that. If you read the entire chain you may see why. I find that folks who respond off the cuff to demonstrate how tough and authentic they are usually miss out on some information that could actually be helpful some day.

I find this ironic being multiple parties have advised you that nothing can be done to the PTT while the boat is submerged. You sure you're not the one missing out on information that could be helpful?

Even if pulled up, you couldn't do anything with it..

Thank you sir.

[FirstBoat50tlr]

Soooo is the boat out of the water?

[smplaxco]

I want to tilt the motor so that I can look at the Showa unit and try to diagnose the issue before taking it out of the water. The boat is in a Chicago harbor. The trailer is an hour away. The parts will take several days, at least. I have nowhere to store it while I wait for parts I order once it's out of the water. So I want to order them before I take it out, if possible.

Thanks for the posts that are addressing the posed question and for being helpful. The rest who are just bored with their lives and looking to be "smarter than" and/or "right" on a situation that they don't understand, to a total stranger, well there are other worlds out there and other experiences, there should be no reason to have to explain all the details. Just ignore the post.

[pstephens46]

I want to tilt the motor so that I can look at the Showa unit and try to diagnose the issue before taking it out of the water. The boat is in a Chicago harbor. The trailer is an hour away. The parts will take several days, at least. I have nowhere to store it while I wait for parts I order once it's out of the water. So I want to order them before I take it out, if possible.

Thanks for the posts that are addressing the posed question and for being helpful. The rest who are just bored with their lives and looking to be "smarter than" and/or "right" on a situation that they don't understand, to a total stranger, well there are other worlds out there and other experiences, there should be no reason to have to explain all the details. Just ignore the post.

Going to be hard to diagnose in the water. Period. Whatever leak you have is not going to evident in the water. Have you tried ****ing on the motor, maybe with the rope concoction, while someone holds the button for the up position. Worked for me several times when I had a leak. That damn Showa unit has some tiny o-rings that fail between trim motor and housing. 5-6 o-rings if I remember correctly. Common issue.

where is Roscoe? Rodbolt ever show up?

[pstephens46]

Lifting the motor…..kinda shaking it.