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Hi guys,
I'm new here but I'm in a jam and could use any help you can offer. Here goes:
2 weeks ago, I pulled apart my 2002 Z200 HPDI trim and tilt unit (also known as a Showa M-2) to replace the o-rings, wiper seals and piston o-rings and seals and change the fluid since all three (1 tilt and 2 trims) were leaking. This evolved into sucking the old fluid out with a turkey baster. I rebuilt everything as I thought it came out (more on this later), shoved the rods into all three cylinders, put the caps on, and tried to add all the new fluid through the reservoir. I came to find out that this is not the proper procedure when I could not bleed the air out and decided it was time to read the service manual before proceeding, I then pulled the trim cylinder caps and rods, filled to the rim, replaced the rods and caps (spilling as little fluid out as possible so as to minimize air in the cylinder). I did NOT do this for the tilt since I was worried about damaging the cap since it is ~$360 to replace since to is only available to buy as a subassembly -- cap, rod, all seals, etc. After all this and some bleeding and a lot of wasted fluid, the system was working, but slowly. I would say if normal speed from down to up is 15 seconds, it was taking about 25 seconds with a little hesitation at the change from trim to tilt.
The next week, I dismount the unit from the bracket (surprisingly easy), put it in a vice, remove the trim and tilt rods and caps, fill with fresh fluid, put it back together, top off the reservoir, all by the book, but it is still slow like it has air in it somewhere. No sponginess in the trim rods at this point, but a little in the tilt rod. I finally chalk it up to me being anal and of course, not being on the boat, it is not obvious if it is good to go.
This past weekend, I mount the trim/tilt unit to the motor, re-wire it into the relay, test it out, and while it is a little better than it was two weeks ago after leaving some air in the tilt cylinder, it was definitely not as fast nor as smooth as it should be. I did some reading in the service manual, on THT, and on various other websites and chalk it up to needing to bleed it further after 20-30 up/down motions and some wait time (maybe a month of normal use???) After this, I go to put the boat in at the ramp. Boat is a 20 ft Grady CC on a bunk trailer at low tide with a shallow ramp -- no such thing as floating off there. I get the truck's wheels wet, trim down and decide its time to fire her up. I idle it in reverse and decide to give it a little gas. As soon as I touched the throttle, the motor shot out of the water like I forgot to put the trim/tilt unit in the bracket in the first place. The motor trims up without assistance, out the boat comes, and the first thing I do is look to see if I forgot to tighten the manual release screw. It was tight and not leaking by -- at least for the purposes of holding the motor up and allowing it to build pressure to push up and come back down. I scrapped the plan of putting it in, and removed the trim/tilt unit from the bracket again to put back on the workbench.
Monday, I talked with my grandfather ( 60 years around boats) and my father (40 years around boats). The first thing we talk about is the ability of all the outboards we've ever seen with power trim and tilt to pop up if the boat is suddenly grounded or hits something like a telephone pole just below the water's surface. We concluded that since the motor has never kicked up in reverse in the past, something has changed to cause this phenomenon. The only explanation we could come up with was that I screwed up in reassembling the tilt piston assembly: the balls, tappets, and springs facing the bottom of the ocean when the boat is in the water, were in upside down!!! By logic, the drawings I saw, and the wear marks on the parts, correcting this issue should have fixed the reversing kick-up problem and maybe even the time it takes to go up and down since some fluid was allowed to go from one side of the tilt piston to the other -- through the piston itself rather than through the passages of the unit.
Tuesday, I make another mistake. This time a huge one I do what I do best, take the caps and rods off, dumped all the fluid ($$$ down the drain), proceed to reassemble the balls, tappets and springs in the correct orientation, and rather than put it all back together and try it out, I decided to go through the service manual and fix anything that I think could possibly pose a problem down the road since it's a pain to work on the unit in the motor and I would like to repaint it and leave it on the bracket to the foreseeable future.
Here I will get very detailed on what I did because I am so far into this that generalities will become ambiguous.
1. I pulled off the reservoir, replaced the o-ring between the main unit and the reservoir and put the reservoir off to the side.
2. I removed the snap ring (circlip) holding the manual release screw in the unit, unscrewed the manual release, replaced the outer o-ring since it was a little worn, and left the snap ring and release screw off to the side. Note that I did not use the exact Yamaha o-ring here. The OD and ID were not exactly the same as the original, but were extremely close when on the manual release screw.
3.Pulled the motor off the gear pump assembly (originally my intention was to just fill with fluid and put the motor back on)
4. Cleaned the filter for the pump and tried to get all the metal filings out of the pump.
5. There were more filings I could not get to that were blocked by the gear pump and there were directions for how to disassemble and reassemble the gear pump in the service manual so I got into it. This is the part where I screwed up and got in over my head
6. In taking apart the gear pump, I lost track of what parts were where exactly. The drawings in the parts diagrams and the service manual are mediocre in terms of detail, so it took my about 5 tries to figure out how it all goes together -- or at least so I think.
7. Once I had the gear pump assembly back together, I filled the pump with fluid (Castrol Dexron Synthetic, meets Dexron 1-3, manual calls for Dexron 2).
8. Then I installed the pump motor, making sure that the armature and drive pin were lined up.
9. I filled the tilt cylinder and it took much less fluid than I remembered. Upon further inspection, the "free piston" was almost at the top of the cylinder. I checked the manual and it said to just push it down until it bottoms out, fill cylinder with fluid, and replace tilt piston/rod and cap as normal, so that is what I did.
10. Then I filled the trim cylinders to the rim, installed one of the piston/rod and caps, cranked it down, then re topped off the other trim cylinder (not really necessary since some fluid gushed out as I over filled the other side, and installed the 2nd trim piston/rod and cap then cranked it down.
11. I then tried to put fluid in the port where the reservoir meets the unit, and it only took a couple drops. This, along with the filling of a few other ports is specified in the manual. The problem is, the other ports are inaccessible because the set screws to get at them and the gear pump housing bolts are corroded in place.
12. Next, I installed the reservoir and filled it level.
13. I went through the bleeding process and no matter what I did, I could not get the unit to trim up or down under its own power, even with me helping push down and later pulling up. This includes releasing the manual release and pushing down the pistons and pulling them back out by hand/carefully with a rag and visegrips many times.
Please see these parts diagrams for an idea of what I'm referring to:
http://www.simyamaha.com/Yamaha_Part...200TXRA_-_2002)
http://www.simyamaha.com/Yamaha_Part...200TXRA_-_2002)
As far as I can tell, all the parts in the gear pump as doing their individual jobs properly, check valves open and close properly, shuttle pistons operate smoothly, gears mesh well, no excessive scoring/scratching anywhere, all parts accounted for, etc.
It seems as though the pump has lost its prime. Between my father and I, we have about 20 man hours into fighting with it since Sunday night. Any advice you guys can offer is most appreciated. Sorry for the long-winded first post!
Thanks guys!
Ryan Secor
Kimberly Ryan II
Waretown, NJ
I'm new here but I'm in a jam and could use any help you can offer. Here goes:
2 weeks ago, I pulled apart my 2002 Z200 HPDI trim and tilt unit (also known as a Showa M-2) to replace the o-rings, wiper seals and piston o-rings and seals and change the fluid since all three (1 tilt and 2 trims) were leaking. This evolved into sucking the old fluid out with a turkey baster. I rebuilt everything as I thought it came out (more on this later), shoved the rods into all three cylinders, put the caps on, and tried to add all the new fluid through the reservoir. I came to find out that this is not the proper procedure when I could not bleed the air out and decided it was time to read the service manual before proceeding, I then pulled the trim cylinder caps and rods, filled to the rim, replaced the rods and caps (spilling as little fluid out as possible so as to minimize air in the cylinder). I did NOT do this for the tilt since I was worried about damaging the cap since it is ~$360 to replace since to is only available to buy as a subassembly -- cap, rod, all seals, etc. After all this and some bleeding and a lot of wasted fluid, the system was working, but slowly. I would say if normal speed from down to up is 15 seconds, it was taking about 25 seconds with a little hesitation at the change from trim to tilt.
The next week, I dismount the unit from the bracket (surprisingly easy), put it in a vice, remove the trim and tilt rods and caps, fill with fresh fluid, put it back together, top off the reservoir, all by the book, but it is still slow like it has air in it somewhere. No sponginess in the trim rods at this point, but a little in the tilt rod. I finally chalk it up to me being anal and of course, not being on the boat, it is not obvious if it is good to go.
This past weekend, I mount the trim/tilt unit to the motor, re-wire it into the relay, test it out, and while it is a little better than it was two weeks ago after leaving some air in the tilt cylinder, it was definitely not as fast nor as smooth as it should be. I did some reading in the service manual, on THT, and on various other websites and chalk it up to needing to bleed it further after 20-30 up/down motions and some wait time (maybe a month of normal use???) After this, I go to put the boat in at the ramp. Boat is a 20 ft Grady CC on a bunk trailer at low tide with a shallow ramp -- no such thing as floating off there. I get the truck's wheels wet, trim down and decide its time to fire her up. I idle it in reverse and decide to give it a little gas. As soon as I touched the throttle, the motor shot out of the water like I forgot to put the trim/tilt unit in the bracket in the first place. The motor trims up without assistance, out the boat comes, and the first thing I do is look to see if I forgot to tighten the manual release screw. It was tight and not leaking by -- at least for the purposes of holding the motor up and allowing it to build pressure to push up and come back down. I scrapped the plan of putting it in, and removed the trim/tilt unit from the bracket again to put back on the workbench.
Monday, I talked with my grandfather ( 60 years around boats) and my father (40 years around boats). The first thing we talk about is the ability of all the outboards we've ever seen with power trim and tilt to pop up if the boat is suddenly grounded or hits something like a telephone pole just below the water's surface. We concluded that since the motor has never kicked up in reverse in the past, something has changed to cause this phenomenon. The only explanation we could come up with was that I screwed up in reassembling the tilt piston assembly: the balls, tappets, and springs facing the bottom of the ocean when the boat is in the water, were in upside down!!! By logic, the drawings I saw, and the wear marks on the parts, correcting this issue should have fixed the reversing kick-up problem and maybe even the time it takes to go up and down since some fluid was allowed to go from one side of the tilt piston to the other -- through the piston itself rather than through the passages of the unit.
Tuesday, I make another mistake. This time a huge one I do what I do best, take the caps and rods off, dumped all the fluid ($$$ down the drain), proceed to reassemble the balls, tappets and springs in the correct orientation, and rather than put it all back together and try it out, I decided to go through the service manual and fix anything that I think could possibly pose a problem down the road since it's a pain to work on the unit in the motor and I would like to repaint it and leave it on the bracket to the foreseeable future.
Here I will get very detailed on what I did because I am so far into this that generalities will become ambiguous.
1. I pulled off the reservoir, replaced the o-ring between the main unit and the reservoir and put the reservoir off to the side.
2. I removed the snap ring (circlip) holding the manual release screw in the unit, unscrewed the manual release, replaced the outer o-ring since it was a little worn, and left the snap ring and release screw off to the side. Note that I did not use the exact Yamaha o-ring here. The OD and ID were not exactly the same as the original, but were extremely close when on the manual release screw.
3.Pulled the motor off the gear pump assembly (originally my intention was to just fill with fluid and put the motor back on)
4. Cleaned the filter for the pump and tried to get all the metal filings out of the pump.
5. There were more filings I could not get to that were blocked by the gear pump and there were directions for how to disassemble and reassemble the gear pump in the service manual so I got into it. This is the part where I screwed up and got in over my head
6. In taking apart the gear pump, I lost track of what parts were where exactly. The drawings in the parts diagrams and the service manual are mediocre in terms of detail, so it took my about 5 tries to figure out how it all goes together -- or at least so I think.
7. Once I had the gear pump assembly back together, I filled the pump with fluid (Castrol Dexron Synthetic, meets Dexron 1-3, manual calls for Dexron 2).
8. Then I installed the pump motor, making sure that the armature and drive pin were lined up.
9. I filled the tilt cylinder and it took much less fluid than I remembered. Upon further inspection, the "free piston" was almost at the top of the cylinder. I checked the manual and it said to just push it down until it bottoms out, fill cylinder with fluid, and replace tilt piston/rod and cap as normal, so that is what I did.
10. Then I filled the trim cylinders to the rim, installed one of the piston/rod and caps, cranked it down, then re topped off the other trim cylinder (not really necessary since some fluid gushed out as I over filled the other side, and installed the 2nd trim piston/rod and cap then cranked it down.
11. I then tried to put fluid in the port where the reservoir meets the unit, and it only took a couple drops. This, along with the filling of a few other ports is specified in the manual. The problem is, the other ports are inaccessible because the set screws to get at them and the gear pump housing bolts are corroded in place.
12. Next, I installed the reservoir and filled it level.
13. I went through the bleeding process and no matter what I did, I could not get the unit to trim up or down under its own power, even with me helping push down and later pulling up. This includes releasing the manual release and pushing down the pistons and pulling them back out by hand/carefully with a rag and visegrips many times.
Please see these parts diagrams for an idea of what I'm referring to:
http://www.simyamaha.com/Yamaha_Part...200TXRA_-_2002)
http://www.simyamaha.com/Yamaha_Part...200TXRA_-_2002)
As far as I can tell, all the parts in the gear pump as doing their individual jobs properly, check valves open and close properly, shuttle pistons operate smoothly, gears mesh well, no excessive scoring/scratching anywhere, all parts accounted for, etc.
It seems as though the pump has lost its prime. Between my father and I, we have about 20 man hours into fighting with it since Sunday night. Any advice you guys can offer is most appreciated. Sorry for the long-winded first post!
Thanks guys!
Ryan Secor
Kimberly Ryan II
Waretown, NJ
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