Intermittent Starter Problem

[michaelmeseck]

hey guys...

I posted on here about a month ago about an intermittent starter issue with my 2006 150 4 stroke. starter either kicks and starts motor immediately (maybe 10 times in a row) OR partially engages starter and then doesn't spin it long enough to turn engine over. there are also times where I turn the key (which looks old and possibly corroded) and I get "nothing" (no sounds, no partial starter engagement, etc). I have tried to find a voltage drop at every point between the battery and the starter itself and cannot (because 99% of the time it turns right over). I don't think it's the starter itself at this point because when it does work (most of the time) it turns over like a brand new motor. at this point I am trying to make my best guess and either replace the key switch or the relay...

on a side note... since this has started happening more often I've noticed that (occasionally) when I turn the key switch off the motor continues to run for 4 or 5 seconds. would this be another symptom of a faulty key switch and help to further diagnose my problem? would a bad relay have *anything* to do with this (doesn't seem like it would)? maybe just a coincidence? any advice is always greatly appreciated.

thanks,
mike

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Mines the same engine exactly.

Your starter problem has likely the same issue as mine had. Read the below thread (with pic's);

http://www.yamahaoutboardparts.com/f...t-th23164.html

You can jump the relay direct (by-passing the internal "disc") for direct voltage to the starter.

Re continuing to run, the starter relay would have nothing to do with that. It simply allows voltage to travel thru it to the starter. You will hear a click when turning the key to start, thats the "solenoid" inside. My issue was with the contacts (last shown in that thread), getting crapped up inside from use.

Inside the starter relay;

[michaelmeseck]

Scott,

Thanks so much for the reply. I'm torn right now between replacing the relay, the ignition switch/key, or both. Love your post and the pics are extremely helpful to explain how that relay would fail.

Can anyone else out there explain why the motor may continue to run after key switch is turned off? Would this be another indicator that it's more likely the switch in my case than it is the relay? Just hate to start throwing too many parts at it before making a very educated guess.

Rodbolt or any others? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again guys,

Mike

[rodbolt17]

there are several things that must happen to shut down an EFI 4 stroke.
one is the removal of the 12V, the other is applying a ground on the stop circuit.
this allows the ECU to successfully shut down and reset the ISC valve.

if the ECU does NOT see the correct sequence you will get a delayed shut down or no shutdown.

however I lost my magic wand and my crystal ball got broke.
I still have to use my meter and schematic and test it old school.

[michaelmeseck]

Rodbolt17,

I fully understand. I know it is impossible to diagnose via forum posts and limited information. I guess all I am asking is if it is *possible* for a bad ignition switch to cause this problem?

Again, thanks for the response.

[rodbolt17]

bad switch,bad harness, poor connections, bad ECU.
all can create issues.

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Are you getting any clicking at the relay WITH NO spinning of the starter? Checking voltage at the relay (both sides) would tell the condition of the relay.

Mine would ALWAYS click, just wouldn't pass voltage thru it(as you can see by the crappy contacts).

BTW, the engine ran fine the rest of that day, BUT the relay did get replaced just as I'm NOT getting stuck. It never happened again (couldn't reproduce the NON crank issue) which is why I cut it apart just to verify our suspicions.. It was indeed bad, internally.

About 180 hours on the engine at that time..

Well worth $80.00 for piece of mind IMO

BTW, You can jump those two terminals when its acting up should it fail(just basically by passing turning the key) and the engine will spin over (if its the relay).

[michaelmeseck]

hey Scott,

not that I've noticed. seems to be an all or nothing thing. no sign of a voltage drop across the relay, but out of about 50 key turns about 48 of them turned over with no problem. 2-3 key turns resulted in a 1-2 second hesitation and then a normal start.

I am getting an intermittent low voltage on the ignition wire coming into the coil (only jumps up to 5-6 volts) occasionally and this seems to occur with a hesitant start that eventually turns over if the key is held. the more I test this the more I can't help but notice that if I turn the ignition key hard it starts much faster and more reliably than if I turn the key gently (normally). just makes me think mine may be the ignition switch and not the relay.

Prior to cutting your relay open did you happen to notice rattling inside of it if you shook it or tapped on it? seems like those parts would have rattled around a bit based on the looks of them in the picture.

again, thanks for the info. still trying to track it down...


mike

[Tony Harper]

dose your power trim work when the starter fault occurs ?? & also when the starter fault occurs do your dash digital gauges drop out ?? reason being is I have had 2 F 150 over years with similar faults & on both occasions they had similar symptoms to yours & the fault was a bad main Battery lead "EARTH" connection on the engine where it mounts to the block, both times the bolt was tight, but when removed there was evidence of "arcing" on both the earth terminal & the block where it seats, both earth terminals & blocks where cleaned with light sand paper & reseated with a tightened bolt, I then sprayed with 'Wurth" battery terminal protector & have no problems since. These were on 2 x different customers engines with about 5 years between jobs.
Both of these did also have "intermittant" low voltage charging issues whilst running.

[TownsendsFJR1300]

hey Scott,

not that I've noticed. seems to be an all or nothing thing. no sign of a voltage drop across the relay, but out of about 50 key turns about 48 of them turned over with no problem. 2-3 key turns resulted in a 1-2 second hesitation and then a normal start.

I am getting an intermittent low voltage on the ignition wire coming into the coil (only jumps up to 5-6 volts) occasionally and this seems to occur with a hesitant start that eventually turns over if the key is held. the more I test this the more I can't help but notice that if I turn the ignition key hard it starts much faster and more reliably than if I turn the key gently (normally). just makes me think mine may be the ignition switch and not the relay.

Prior to cutting your relay open did you happen to notice rattling inside of it if you shook it or tapped on it? seems like those parts would have rattled around a bit based on the looks of them in the picture.

again, thanks for the info. still trying to track it down...


mike

Mike, just to add to the ABOVE PREVIOUS POST, my voltage, at least at the gauges did NOT drop, it stayed constant.

Just got the "click" which is the inner coil working correctly, just the contact points being crapped up NOT allowing any voltage (in my case) to go thru to the starter.

By the time I popped the cowl off to investigate, it was working again and I couldn't get it to duplicate it again.

Those contact points are right next to the main hexagonal terminals. That relay is EXTREMLY WELL BUILT. The coil nside is easily 3/4" across(very HD and still worked after I cut the thing apart).

Not knowing what the inside looked like and I didn't want to screw up the contacts, I went at it with an air powered cut off wheel. With that, it still took me easily 15 minutes to break it apart without damaging the contacts(as I wanted to inspect them). As you could see, the one side was pretty bad.

The engine is flushed religiously and the inside (under the cowl sprayed with a product called LPS2 ( http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/561 ) recommended by the yamaha dealership. Under the cowl looks brand new so there's no evidence at all of being run in salt water...

That relay, everytime you turn the key to crank, gets a decent load on it. Just normal running will take its toll..

As previously noted, that relay will ONLY affect actual cranking. If you locate the relay, its under a cover, port side, (follow the starter wire backwards).

Should it NOT SPIN over, simply jumping those two terminals bypasses the relay. If the relay is the issue, it'll spin over..

Being an occasional issue(as you have), its a b...h to try and fix until it acts up. My luck, I'd be out and get stuck. I figured it was cheaper to replace that part, just for piece of mind. I won't own a machine(especially a boat) I can't trust. Opening that relay simply verified IT was the problem...

I think I answered your question... Hope that helps..

[TownsendsFJR1300]

dose your power trim work when the starter fault occurs ?? & also when the starter fault occurs do your dash digital gauges drop out ?? reason being is I have had 2 F 150 over years with similar faults & on both occasions they had similar symptoms to yours & the fault was a bad main Battery lead "EARTH" connection on the engine where it mounts to the block, both times the bolt was tight, but when removed there was evidence of "arcing" on both the earth terminal & the block where it seats, both earth terminals & blocks where cleaned with light sand paper & reseated with a tightened bolt, I then sprayed with 'Wurth" battery terminal protector & have no problems since. These were on 2 x different customers engines with about 5 years between jobs.
Both of these did also have "intermittant" low voltage charging issues whilst running.

Very good point about the ground wire(s).

I would add, that in ALL my machines, bike and boat in particular, I put dielectric grease in all connectors I pull apart, grounds, battery cables, etc. It helps keep the moisture out and future corrosion from occurring. Very cheap and easy insurance from corrosion..

[michaelmeseck]

thank you tony and Scott...

I *just* finished reading the yamaha service bulletin about the paint on the engine block where the ground terminal connects. this will be the next thing I check. I have never noticed that I lose power to command link gauges when the fault occurs, but maybe I just haven't been paying attention. will also watch for that.

had a helper turn the key for me today about 50 times as I searched for a voltage drop on front and back side of relay. unfortunately the motor turned over every time, HOWEVER, there were 5-10 hesitant starts where I noticed that the max voltage on the "incoming" relay wire (ignition) only jumped to about 5-6 volts. most other turns it spiked to 8-12 volts as it turned over. may be another sign of a failing ignition switch.

I have no problem paying $80 for a relay and $140 for an ignition switch (cheap boat repair really), but at this point I just have to know where the fault lies so I don't feel crazy anymore. maybe I'll never know...

I think I may pay $150 for a Sea Tow membership and wait til it finally "breaks the right way". trying to catch a ghost right now.

and Scott... yes you did answer my question. as fragile as it looks from your pics I imagined it being poorly constructed.

thanks again guys. I'll keep you posted if I find this devil...

mike

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Good luck with it and should you find the issue, please post the issue. I suspect its just a matter of time as whatevers acting up will only get worse..

BTW, those contacts in that relay are very, very heavy duty(kind of hard to see in the pic).


Also, you can pull that relay off the engine and do your testing on the bench if you want. You'd just apply 12 volts to the two wires, hot and ground (activating the inside coil).

Then put 12 volts to one terminal and monitor the other terminal for any voltage drop.

Once again, when it acts up, just run a jumper across those lugs and you'll by pass the relay and (if there's 12 volts on one side) it should spin over (start too if the key is on)-Just so you don't indeed get stuck..