Yamaha HPDI Design Flaw

[HPDIHELL]

I took delivery of a new Yamaha VMAX VT175 HDPI engine on March 8, 2013. In January of 2014 I had an issue where the boat was robbed of power so took it to my dealer for repair. I was told that my high pressure pump was inoperable and that I had water in my engine and that it would cost $2009 to repair that would not be covered under warranty because of “bad fuel”. When I contacted Yamaha they explained that the boat should have had a fuel water separator with a 10 micron filter installed and that blamed me, my dealer and ethanol gas for the situation. Yamaha was a little surprised when I informed Yamaha that I run ethanol free gas that I located on Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada but ultimately they would not stand behind their product and I had to write a $2009 check to repair a boat with three years left on the warranty. My dealer informed me that the new Yamaha engines had these issues all the time and that the problem was caused by a series tiny filters and is a very common issue. I’m not without means and took it as a life lesson on the need for fuel 10 micron filter water separators with high pressure direct inject engines and had the Yamaha fuel water separator with 10 micron filter installed. When I receive by boat back on March 12, 2014, I made the decision after hearing all the evils of ethanol fuel to continue to pay the 50 cent premium and only ran ethanol free gasoline. Just a few months later in May 14, I’m boating with my 9 year old son and my engine shuts down. We are stranded and have to be towed back to the dock. This is new engine with less than 70 hours, a new filter that is running fresh hard to find ethanol free gasoline. I take my new Yamaha Marine engine back to my dealer and the injectors are clogged again. This time it’s debris that miraculously made it past the Yamaha 10 micron filter. As you might imagine my dealer and I had a pretty candid conversation. He indicated that he had attended Yamaha marine training it had argued at length with them about the direct injector design flaw. Yamaha blames the EPA for design restrictions, ethanol and everything except their design. I found it VERY interesting that when they drain the “bad” fuel from these boats that it runs fine in vehicles and lawn mowers.

I’ve done everything possible to prevent this issue from re-occurring. This is clearly a design flaw in the fuel system and the engine is not fit for purpose. I purchased a new motor because I wanted something reliable and safe for my family. Any advise for someone with less than 70 hours on a new motor with over $3K in non-warranty covered repair cost? Any chance I can return this motor under lemon law? Any advise from this form on how to deal with the Yamaha warranty department in round two of this nightmare?

The issue is clearly documented all over the web but I was hoping this forum would have better tips on dealing with Yamaha. My end goal is to return the motor because it is not fit for purpose.


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CharlestonFishing.Com - Yamaha 200 HPDI fuel problems solved-HP fuel pump

[rodbolt17]

dude
I have commercial guys with over 3000 hours on the same 2.6L HPDI motors.
fuel quality is beyond yamahas control and is not a warrenty item.
yea they suck.
yea its why a 175 E-TEC is on the back of a Yamaha master techs bass boat.
would not own a Z VZ or V8 outboard if you gave it to me.
to many filters and to much maint.

but fuel issues are NOT a warrenty issue.

[boscoe99]

I agree with Rodbolt. Many, many HPDI motors run just fine for years and years and for thousands of hours. They are all of the same design. So, if yours is of the same design as those that don't have failures (and the presence of water is found in yours) then how can there be a design flaw?

How can one motor of the same design (yours) be unfit for the purpose intended when the exact same design (others) is obviously fit for the purpose intended, given that they run fine?

If there is something external that is causing your motor to not run correctly, such as water/crap in the fuel, then that is induced damage. Something not related to the motor itself caused the damage. This is not a warranty matter, as painful to you as it may be.

Was the motor on a new boat or was it a repower? Would be interesting to know.

Having said this, the HPDI is a Rube ****berg affair. Multiple lift pumps, electric fuel pump, high pressure mechanical pumps, filter after filter after filter, electric oil pump, mechanical oil pump, high voltage injectors, injector drivers, etc., etc., etc. If one loves to do maintenance on their own motor, then this is the one for them.

Don't know where you are located but most, if not all, lemon laws don't apply to outboard motors.

Get it fixed, sell it and move on.

[HPDIHELL]

This is a chronic problem if you look at the link in my thread. Yamaha has designed a product that fails and requires $1000 in repairs when you run fuel that can be drained and put into another vehicle and it operates without issue. If the fuel destroys a Yamaha but runs fine in any other vehicle you put it in how it that bad fuel?

The design flaw is that you have build your product to operation in real world conditions not fail when you burn water separated 10 micron filtered ethanol free fuel that again runs without issue in other vehicles. The I have a fleet of Yamaha engines that run fine argument is just silly. General Motors also has some cars on the road that run for 200,000 miles but they recently we outed for a cover up of design flaws. It would be very interesting to subpoena Yamaha's internal e-mail on this subject and see their internal discussions. I bet there are some skeletons in that closet.

[rodbolt17]

dude
do you realize that design has been about since about 1999?
I still have some 2003 Z200's that run weekly with the EXACT same pumps and injectors in you VZ175.
could also be something dissolving in your fuel system.

[HPDIHELL]

It sounds like you run your fleet daily and you gas never sits more than a week. That is not reality for 95% of boat owners and the engine needs to be designed for real world tolerance or not sold to recreational users. For recreational users occasionally our gas may need to sit for a few weeks or even a month. I'm realize that I'm on a Yamaha site and you can spin for Yamaha all you want but you will never be able to explain to me why gas that brings this engine to its knees and cost over $2000 to repair can be pumped into the gas tank of another vehicle and runs fine. Again I'm running ethanol free gas through a Yamaha's own filter and water separator. Blaming fuel when it runs fine in another vehicle is a cop out.

[boscoe99]

We have courts available when consumers believe they have been wronged.

Present your side of the story to a judge. Yamaha will present their side.

Let us know who wins.

[HPDIHELL]

I will if I have to go that route. None of you Yamaha spin masters can explain to me why the "bad fuel" runs fine in other vehicles. The same batch of fuel is running in my EFI pathfinder, my four wheeler and my pressure washer with no issue.

[boscoe99]

I will if I have to go that route. None of you Yamaha spin masters can explain to me why the "bad fuel" runs fine in other vehicles. The same batch of fuel is running in my EFI pathfinder, my four wheeler and my pressure washer with no issue.

The fuel system of a Yamaha HPDI has no comparison to the fuel delivery system of any of the other products that you mentioned.

Your EFI pathfinder may be operating with a fuel pressure of 50 psi. The other devices probably much less. The HPDI is operating at 725 psi.

The same fuel that might work very well in an EFI or carbureted motor might not work worth a darn in an HPDI motor. In your case this certainly seems to be the situation.

[boscoe99]

One final point.

Design is not warranted by Yamaha. Only defects due to materials or workmanship are warranted.

But, if a judge finds in your favor that the motor is not fit for purpose then good for you.

[BQUICK]

Sorry for your situation.
A 5 micron filter might help. Also, just because it was ethanol-free fuel does not mean it is not contaminated or old.
as stated, just because it runs fine in other motors means nothing. Passages are much larger than HPDI....

[Frank851]

Just because you are running ethanol free fuel does not mean the gas will not go bad. I have severl motorcycles and I can confirm that today's gasoline does not have the same life as it did even 5 years ago. The stabilizers in the fuel have been eliminated or reduced for cost savings.

Have you run any gasoline stablilizers or yamaha ring free in your fuel? I have a 2005 HPDI 300 and I always run ethanol free fuel. I always run Star Brite® Star Tron® Enzyme Fuel Treatment and Yamaha Ring Free in each fill up. Yes it is more expensive to do this but I have never had the issues you describe. I have 550 hours on my motor and I do alot of low rpm runs that could result in more fouling.

For your reference, current gasoline blends can start to go bad within 2 weeks after being in your tank. Keep this in mind.

Also, have you checked the top of your gas tank on your boat, where the level probe or other fittings are gasketed to the tank? You may be getting water in your gas from this point of entry. I've seen this multiple times on boats.

[strokeracevt]

How old is your tank and fuel lines? I do not think you can say we are all "spinning for Yamaha". If you took the time to read any of the previous posts you would know that we all have problems from time to time. I am sure your problem lies with your tank, lines, vent, or the new gas from the pump itself. Run the motor on an external tank with new lines and gas from a different station. It does seem strange to me that my extra cars that sit in my garage for longer periods of time than my boat, and go unused, do not have the same problems. This is a problem that you can work through. Or I will buy it for a couple grand if you want??

[bajakeith]

bad fuel

I have no dog in this fight!! But I have a TSB from mercury marine to the ca. dealers stating " fuel in the calif. market can go bad in two (2) weeks !! YIKES !!! and I see the big E gas eat and plug any motor if not protected and fresh....my dog wears STHIL chain saw safety shades...and the dealer that I buy them from says "everything that comes in has a ethanol issue"...Keith

[rodbolt17]

for the past many moons automobiles have had sealed fuel systems.
boats,until jan 2010, typically vent directly to the atmosphere.
E fuels are incredibly hydroscopic.
they will pull moisture out of the atmosphere until it can hold no more water.
this water CANNOT be filtered with a standard water separator as its now PART of the fuel solution.
at this point the fuel is considered saturated.
anymore and its super saturated and goes into what is known as phase separation.
the ugly crap starts setting out of solution.
then as the ethanol starts evaporating it leaves only degraded fuel and watery crap behind.

typically boats are operated is a slightly more humid area than automobiles.

typically the spark plugs will tell me if the customers fuel is water saturated.
not to the point of a running issue but to the point you can see the water burn deposits on the plug ground electrode.
it shows up as a tannish gray crust.

you cant see it much in the two stroke but in the EFI 4 strokes that require intake removal for VST service we see that brown sticky residue on the intake ports and then we know the fuel tank or draw tube is dissolving.