2000 HPDI Z200TLRY RPM Issues?????

[bjsetera]

Anyone else out there.....

Wanted to see if anyone else may have some suggestions....

I have been working about 18 hours a day this past week and haven't had any time to trouble shoot anything else. I was thinking I may need to test the fuel pressure and found a fuel pressure gauge cheap at Napa, just didn't know if that would work. If anyone else knows of another cheap pressure guage, please shoot me a link.

Thanks,
Brad

[Finisher]

sorry your having such trouble with this motor. usually a complete filter change fixes the problem. the o2 sensors usually are pretty good but get dirty and make a ticking sound. you can take the black cover off, then the o2 sensor housing and there will be a barbell looking piece in there that gets loaded with carbon. clean that inside and out and there is a hole in the block into the cyl that needs to be clean too. if there is a lot of oil on the inside of the black cover then change the insulating gasket. also take the o2 sensor out of the housing and clean it. as for the running first check should be fuel pressure. depending on what that tells you, you will know the direction to look. see if it rises falls or stay the same when problem occurs. you will need an o2 sensor gasket kit. good luck i will check back soon

[99yam40]

Wanted to see if anyone else may have some suggestions....

I have been working about 18 hours a day this past week and haven't had any time to trouble shoot anything else. I was thinking I may need to test the fuel pressure and found a fuel pressure gauge cheap at Napa, just didn't know if that would work. If anyone else knows of another cheap pressure guage, please shoot me a link.

Thanks,
Brad

I believe these motors run high pressure 600 psi or better at the rail, but low pressure pump pressure needs to be monitored also.
may be best to take to shop and let them hook up the computer and do the testing and you have been making money working those long hours

[Dave Blaber]

same problem

Hi just wondering if you found the problem as I am experiencing a same problem I have two z200 hpdi one runs fine the other does not power up over 3700rpm I swapped the vapor chamber now the good motor is bad so the problem lies in the vapor chamber but I have replaced every part in the faulty unit and still no success I dont know what to do I think it is a manufacturers fault on certain vapor chambers as the bad motor is running perfect but as soon as I change the whole vapor chamber back over it has the problem again anybody with any suggestions before I buy a new complete unit and hope its not faulty too

[Tucker]

The HPDI's have filters and screens all over the place. Check on THT, there's an ongoing thread called HPDI Mystery Filters. The thread is complete with pics, tutorial, and sources where to obtain the screans and filters. Once all the filters have been replaced those guys seem to have good luck keeping them clean by running 2-micron onboard filter seps.

[bjsetera]

Still at it...

Hey Everyone,
Still working on getting the motor back on track. A little update since it has been a while since I was on. Been working more hours than I care to think about, but I have made time to work on the motor some more.

I figured out what the problem was with the engine after the rebuild. I had one of the pistons installed upside down. Like I said earlier, more of a wrench turner than a mechanic. I did catch it in time to not cause to much damage and have since rebuilt the engine one more time. I am getting much better at it than I care to admit . I made sure all was correct this time. Check, double check and check again...

The engine has about 12 hours on it now after doing the break-in over again. It is reaching 5400 RPM now but has a slight surge in power above 3800 RPM. It is a surge that you can feel while running, but not enough to show up on the tach. It is acting like there is a restriction in the fuel system, but I have pulled the VST again and checked the filters once more. I have also bought the Yamaha YDS system as well as the cable and everything checks out ok. I have listed what the printout says below...

Save date June 16 2012
ECM No.: 68F8591A10

Diagnosis
Code Item Result Condition
13 Pulser coil Normal
14 Crank position sensor Normal
15 Water temp sensor Normal
18 Throttle position sensor Normal
19 Battery voltage Normal
22 Atmospheric press sensor Normal
23 Intake temp sensor Normal
25 Fuel press sensor Normal
26 Injector Normal
27 Water in fuel No
28 Shift position switch Normal
44 Engine stop lanyard switch Off

Diagnosis Record
Total hours of operation 6553
Code Item Occurred
23 Intake temp sensor 6553.5
18 Throttle position sensor 6553.5
19 Battery voltage 6553.5
22 Atmospheric press sensor 6553.5
25 Fuel press sensor 6553.5
Fuel press sensor 6553.5

Engine Monitor
Monitor Item Result Unit
Engine speed 650 r/min
Fuel pressure (5.0±0.8) 4.72 MPa
Fuel pressure (725±116) 684.97 psi
Atmospheric pressure 1006.9 HPa
Atmospheric pressure 29.8 inHg
Ignition timing BTDC 3 deg
Battery voltage (12-16) 13.77 V
Oxygen sensor voltage (0-1.0) 0.63 V
TPS voltage (0.5-4.5) 0.55 V
Throttle valve opening (0-90) 1.1 deg
Fuel injection duration 1.08 ms
Water temperature (below 90) 57.5 °C
Water temperature (below 194) 135.5 °F
Intake temperature (below 70) 38.5 °C
Intake temperature (below 158) 101.3 °F
Electric oil pump Low
Firing of cylinder #1 Yes
Firing of cylinder #2 No
Firing of cylinder #3 No
Firing of cylinder #4 Yes
Firing of cylinder #5 Yes
Firing of cylinder #6 Yes
Starter switch OFF
Engine stop lanyard switch OFF
Over-rev control release lead OFF
Main switch ON
Shift position switch ON
Water detection switch OFF
Oil level switch (remote tank) ON
Oil level switch1(engine tank) ON
Oil level switch2(engine tank) OFF
Oil level switch3(engine tank) OFF
Water temp switch (over heat) OFF
Dual engine system switch OFF

Data Logger[Engine operating hours according to engine speed]
Engine speed Time[h]
- 1000 r/min 6553.5
1000 - 2000 r/min 6553.5
2000 - 3000 r/min 6553.5
3000 - 4000 r/min 6553.5
4000 - 5000 r/min 6553.5
5000 - 6000 r/min 6553.5
6000 - 7000 r/min 6553.5
Total hours of operation 6553

Data Logger[Data comparison graph]
Engine speed[r/min] Fuel pressure (5.0±0.8)[MPa] Battery voltage (12-16)[V] Oxygen sensor voltage (0-1.0)[V] TPS voltage (0.5-4.5)[V] Water temperature (below 90)[°C]
500 4.72 12.38 0.05 0.55 59.3
650 4.72 13.48 0.72 0.55 56
600 4.65 13.33 0.44 0.59 52.7
350 4.42 12.23 0.05 0.55 43
650 4.69 13.7 0.68 0.53 52
650 4.69 13.11 0.55 0.53 55
650 4.65 13.84 0.68 0.53 55
700 4.76 13.92 0.67 0.57 55
650 4.72 13.92 0.66 0.57 54.5
650 4.72 13.84 0.64 0.55 55.5
550 4.72 12.23 0.71 0.55 32
650 4.76 13.7 0.77 0.55 43
650 4.72 13.77 0.71 0.55 54

It is a little garbled, but that is the only way I can put it on here without knowing how to put on an attachment.

I tested the fuel pressure from the valve on the VST as the book says and have 50 psi. The manual says that it should have roughly 35 psi and drop no more than 10 psi over a 1 minute period after keying off the pumps. When I turn my key off, it drops immediatly to 20 psi. I checked the fuel regulator as the manual says and it is doing what it is supposed to do. I also checked the seal at the top of the medium pressure pump and it looked good.

I checked the fuel line to make sure the check valves are working as they should with a vacuum gauge and they are working well. I am not sure if this is the problem with regards to the pressure dropping after shut down or not. I also don't know if it is a problem with the ECU as it shows that there is 6553 hours on the engine which is way off. I think the real hours would be something in the neighborhood of 500 or so as I have fished this engine since new.

I would be greatly appreciated if someone can give me their feedback on what they think I should check next. I think I have checked everything with a multimeter as well as the new YDS system, so I am thinking that I can count out all the sensors. I am at a loss at this point and don't know what to do next.

Thanks for any feedback I can get.

Brad

[99yam40]

I am no expert on these motors, but if it is running 50 psi then the pressure regulator has a problem,is my thoughts

[rodbolt17]

50 psi GOOD, 35 psi BAD.
the pressure drop at key off is normal.
no spec on it.
needs about 625 PSI on the HP rail when runninig, much less and it wont run correctly.
O2 sensor feedback is not used above 1500 RPM.

[bjsetera]

99yam40, i tested the fuel regulator with a vacuum gauge while the feul pressure tester was still hooked up. While running the engine and applying vacuum to the regulator, the fuel pressure dropped. When vacuum removed, fuel pressure went back up. Is there any other way to test the pressure regulator? I am just following the troubleshooting instructions in the book.

Rodbolt, I mean no disrespect here, but the book says that I should have 35.6 psi for HPDI models. The EFI models should be between 41 - 52 psi. I would think more is better, but didn't know if it made a difference on the HPDI's as it calls for it to be lower than the EFI models.

Do you think that the ECU could be acting up as it has some bad information on the hours of operation. Also, does it make a difference if I run the YDS program on it while at idle only, or should I have run it on the engine while on the water at speed? Not sure if that would show any faults while the problem is happening.

Thanks again as I'm running out of ideas as well as patience...

Brad

[99yam40]

As I said I am not a Yamaha tech, but Rodbolt17 is a Yamaha Master tech so listen to him not me

Is that a Yamaha service manual you have?

Diagnosis Record
Total hours of operation 6553
Code Item Occurred
23 Intake temp sensor 6553.5
18 Throttle position sensor 6553.5
19 Battery voltage 6553.5
22 Atmospheric press sensor 6553.5
25 Fuel press sensor 6553.5
Fuel press sensor 6553.5

This is definitely messed up, but what would cause it I do not know.
Did you try it again and get the same info?

I also think that seeing what the YDS has to say at the problem RPM would be good.
But What do I know

[bjsetera]

99yam40, the service manual I have is the Clymer. I did get the same info when I tried it again while running. I ran the diagnostic on it while it was not running and it is as follows.

Save date June 16 2012
ECM No.: 68F8591A10

Diagnosis
Code Item Result Condition
13 Pulser coil Normal
14 Crank position sensor Normal
15 Water temp sensor Normal
18 Throttle position sensor Normal
19 Battery voltage Normal
22 Atmospheric press sensor Normal
23 Intake temp sensor Normal
25 Fuel press sensor Normal
26 Injector Normal
27 Water in fuel No
28 Shift position switch Normal
44 Engine stop lanyard switch Off

Diagnosis Record
Total hours of operation 6553
Code Item Occurred
23 Intake temp sensor 6553.5
18 Throttle position sensor 6553.5
19 Battery voltage 6553.5
22 Atmospheric press sensor 6553.5
25 Fuel press sensor 6553.5
Fuel press sensor 6553.5

Engine Monitor
Monitor Item Result Unit
Engine speed 0 r/min
Fuel pressure (5.0±0.8) 0.09 MPa
Fuel pressure (725±116) 13.32 psi
Atmospheric pressure 1006.9 HPa
Atmospheric pressure 29.8 inHg
Ignition timing - deg
Battery voltage (12-16) 12.38 V
Oxygen sensor voltage (0-1.0) 0 V
TPS voltage (0.5-4.5) 0.57 V
Throttle valve opening (0-90) 1.4 deg
Fuel injection duration 0 ms
Water temperature (below 90) 31.5 °C
Water temperature (below 194) 88.7 °F
Intake temperature (below 70) 34.5 °C
Intake temperature (below 158) 94.1 °F
Electric oil pump -
Firing of cylinder #1 No
Firing of cylinder #2 No
Firing of cylinder #3 No
Firing of cylinder #4 No
Firing of cylinder #5 No
Firing of cylinder #6 No
Starter switch OFF
Engine stop lanyard switch OFF
Over-rev control release lead OFF
Main switch ON
Shift position switch ON
Water detection switch OFF
Oil level switch (remote tank) ON
Oil level switch1(engine tank) OFF
Oil level switch2(engine tank) OFF
Oil level switch3(engine tank) OFF
Water temp switch (over heat) OFF
Dual engine system switch OFF

Data Logger[Engine operating hours according to engine speed]
Engine speed Time[h]
- 1000 r/min 6553.5
1000 - 2000 r/min 6553.5
2000 - 3000 r/min 6553.5
3000 - 4000 r/min 6553.5
4000 - 5000 r/min 6553.5
5000 - 6000 r/min 6553.5
6000 - 7000 r/min 6553.5
Total hours of operation 6553

Data Logger[Data comparison graph]
Engine speed[r/min] Fuel pressure (5.0±0.8)[MPa] Battery voltage (12-16)[V] Oxygen sensor voltage (0-1.0)[V] TPS voltage (0.5-4.5)[V] Water temperature (below 90)[°C]
650 4.72 12.45 0.75 0.57 63
500 4.38 12.3 0.21 0.55 67.7
600 4.69 13.04 0.77 0.55 63
500 4.72 12.38 0.05 0.55 59.3
650 4.72 13.48 0.72 0.55 56
600 4.65 13.33 0.44 0.59 52.7
350 4.42 12.23 0.05 0.55 43
650 4.69 13.7 0.68 0.53 52
650 4.69 13.11 0.55 0.53 55
650 4.65 13.84 0.68 0.53 55
700 4.76 13.92 0.67 0.57 55
650 4.72 13.92 0.66 0.57 54.5
650 4.72 13.84 0.64 0.55 55.5

I am not sure exactly what I am reading, but it all seems to be in spec. With regards to the fualt codes, I am not sure I should do anything about them as the hours are all screwed up.

The next time I'm down, I'll try and run the program at speed to see what it says. I have spent so much money on this engine to this point, I don't want to scrap it and have to buy new. It seems as though there is something I am missing, I just can't figure what it is.

Thanks for the reply,
Brad

[99yam40]

If you have replaced all filters and the high pressure stays in spec at problem RPM I would think sending injectors off to have them flow tested and cleaned might be a good idea.

Maybe Your ECU is having problems if it is giving all those codes with those hours, but what do I know

[bjsetera]

That's what I was wondering if the ECU could have any bearing on what is happening... I am not sure how the computer works or if the hours are just a number that doesn't have any bearing on anything else. I have searched without success to see if there is a way to test the ECU, and I don't want to have to order one as they are high dollar...

Brad

[bjsetera]

After speaking to a friend of mine tonight about the engine, he said what was happening a little different than what I may be explaining. When we are at about 3800 RPM and above, the engine seems to surge without changing RPM's. His words were that the engine's pitch (as in sound) seemed to change at an even pace. The pitch was higher when power felt normal, then would sound lower when you could feel the power lower. It would do it in 1 to 2 second itervals.

Just reaching out to see if this explanation helps with anything else to check when back on the boat. Please feel free to chime in if anyone has anymore ideas.

Again, thanks to all who have helped me to this point.

Brad

[bjsetera]

I have potential success....

I was down at our place this weekend and got a chance to work on the boat. I changed out the 2 low pressure fuel pumps first thing Saturday since that is all that I haven't changed up to this point. Hooked the hose up to the ears and ran it. It sounded a lot better (more like it should). Didn't have that missing sound it has had for a while. Hooked up the computer and all checked out ok. Everything was in spec. I cleared all the old diagnostic codes so if anything showed up, I would know it happened then as the computer is showing everything 6553 hours for everything.

Shortly after, put it in the water to run it while the computer was hooked up. Had my better half on the computer and showed her what to check. Jumped back and forth between engine moniter as well as diagnostic testing. Everything stayed in spec in all RPM ranges for the 45 minutes we were out.

The surging has disappeared as I ran the boat longer later in the day when it cooled down some (the weather, not the boat).

It seems for now that I may have an engine that works (knock on wood).

I do have another question though. Looking at similar Yamaha outboards running on a stand, it seems as though the will rev up like a 2-stroke normally does. Mine sounds as though it is bogging down when you quick flip the throttle. Is this normal, or is there something else I should be chasing? It does reach higher RPM's, just not with the flick of the throttle. I have attached a video of someone elses motor that is revving up like I am talking about. I guess I'm not sure if that's because it is only running on 4 cylinders at idle and not all 6.

2000 YAMAHA 200 HP OUTBOARD - YouTube

Thanks for everyones help and I'll keep monitering my motor and this website to see if I can help someone else.

Thanks Again,
Brad