Stalling Yamaha F150

[high sierra]

stalling Yamaha

I've owned the motor since new. I installed it myself and rigged all the cables ,wiring (converted from Merc) and all new Yamaha gauges. (Ive worked in 4 dealerships over a long time as a contract mechanic.) It never stalled once in 3 years and then started a burp and stall, almost a year ago. It got progressively worse. I thought I could fix it. Couldn't do it. It has a large 10 micron filter ahead of the motor and the standard filter on the front of the motor. I can only assume the tec has checked all the fuel system as I can't seem to talk to him. He doesn't talk to common folk. The dealer is still quite pleasant but is getting really tight about this whole episode. Rodbolt , hold that thought. Will advise, high sierra

[rodbolt17]

field tech reps typically will not deal with a customer.
its simply not their job.
they typically get called in to solve issues the dealers techs cannot.
the F150 uses a dirt simple stone age speed density EFI system.
the ign system is a dirt simple TCI system.
dirt easy to monitor with my 23 year old radio shack digital multimeter or one on my CD-77 meters.
however you can also use the radio shack meter that can data record for later playback and graphing.
you can also use the yamaha diagnostics to playback the last 13 minutes of run time and graphing.
its a simple suck,squeeze,bang and blow system.
if the cylinders have the correct amount of air,the correct amount of fuel,spark at the correct time and exhaust it simply runs.
yes virginia, its atually that simple.
if fuel pressure is good,injector voltage is good then, look at ign producing and ign controling functions.
but I can tell you simply chunking parts at it wont fix it.

[Piscator]

10 micron and 10 micron. That's the two filters mentioned. Injectors are 2 micron. The performance history lends credence to an injector issue. ECM won't know if injectors aren't delivering specified volume and injector voltage won't show it either. Cleaning is cheap and fast. Flagship Marine 888-282-2840 - talk to Jeff Brown - a dealership resource.

olefins.

[boatmangc]

I've owned the motor since new. I installed it myself and rigged all the cables ,wiring (converted from Merc) and all new Yamaha gauges. (Ive worked in 4 dealerships over a long time as a contract mechanic.) It never stalled once in 3 years and then started a burp and stall, almost a year ago. It got progressively worse. I thought I could fix it. Couldn't do it. It has a large 10 micron filter ahead of the motor and the standard filter on the front of the motor. I can only assume the tec has checked all the fuel system as I can't seem to talk to him. He doesn't talk to common folk. The dealer is still quite pleasant but is getting really tight about this whole episode. Rodbolt , hold that thought. Will advise, high sierra

Dude, have the stealership pull the injectors, send them to Flagship and be done with this.

It is NOT an electronic issue!

10 Micron is not enough filtration to pull the particles out that are released form a fuel system that has Ever had MTBE enriched fuel in it and then has as little as 1 tank of ethanol enriched fuel in it.

Once the ethanol hits the tank the the deposits left behind by the MTBE fuel are cleaned off and carried downstream straight to the smallest spot they can get to, your injectors. The particles won't even slow down traveling through your 10 Micron filter.

That is why I asked if this was a repower.

Your old carburated motor could handle particles much larger than 10 micron.
Your new motor will not even pass particulates as small as molecules of 2 stroke oil.

Fix them before you blow it up, it is NOT a warranty issue but at this point Yamaha may probably pay for it. They might even give you new injectors.

I see this type of problem constantly.

God bless the EPA and the clean air acts, ethanol has paid my bills for the last 2 years!!

[high sierra]

stalling Yamaha

The new motor they were robbing parts from now has the same problems as my motor. No injector problems with a brand new motor I would hope.
The boat and motor is out of my control. The dealer has it and is determined to do it his way and the tec's way. I've got to let them breath and do it their way. I've been injecting ideas that haven't panned out for them. I just want it fixed. PS If it would blow up it would be fine with me. I would get a new engine . high sierra

[rodbolt17]

you wont get a new motor even if that one blew up.
you may get a new block and head assy but you WILL have the same issues.
its sad that most techs today simply dont understand what and why the various sensor do and how the ECU is mapped to give outputs based on inputs.
the off idle stalling is NOT an injector issue.
the loss of top end power could be.
the VST has a prefilter on top of it and the VST pump has a filter as well as each injector.
means you have 7 filters,that all need maint, under the hood alone.
the off idle stalling is going to be ISC/TPS related.

the govt marine tech stimulous program(E-FUELS) is wonderful yet frustrating.

[Piscator]

you wont get a new motor even if that one blew up.
you may get a new block and head assy but you WILL have the same issues.
its sad that most techs today simply dont understand what and why the various sensor do and how the ECU is mapped to give outputs based on inputs.
the off idle stalling is NOT an injector issue.
the loss of top end power could be.
the VST has a prefilter on top of it and the VST pump has a filter as well as each injector.
means you have 7 filters,that all need maint, under the hood alone.
the off idle stalling is going to be ISC/TPS related.

the govt marine tech stimulous program(E-FUELS) is wonderful yet frustrating.

I'm with you on this, but not likely to find what's wrong unless the fuel delivery system is top notch. Will mask other problems. I've often wished there was some way to display rail pressure like oil pressure. Engine begins to lose power and rail pressure is good sure shortens the list. Same if bad.

Off idle stalling seems to me to be the least of the problems. I didn't hear him say they pulled VST, rail and injectors off the other engine too.

Did they?

This engine is exceptionally easy to maintain. Except maybe for valve clearance adjustment. They could have done that better. Dumb to pull the cams to get at the shims.

Off-thread for a moment: What exactly is boost pressure reported by the ECM on an F150 normally aspirated engine? No one's ever been able to answer that.

[boatmangc]

Friday i installed a freshly cleaned set of injectors on an "09 F150.
It had low speed stalling issues and occasional high speed problems.
It had been to 2 other Yamaha techs before me.
The customer called me today and said it runs better now than when new.

At this point how could your problems logically be anything else?

High Sierra, it sounds as if you are mechanically inclined.
It only takes a 14mm socket to pull 2 screws and your injectors are easily removed.
Look around online there are many companies that clean injectors CHEAP as in <$20 ea. Try and find one that will give you before and after flow findings.

What have you got to lose?

The odds of 2 motors, yours and the donor motor having that many electrical issues without having Command Link and a speedometer sensor running in saltwater are pretty slim!

Roll the dice.


I am new to this forum but far from a newbie. I was on boats.net looking for a part # for a client and clicked on the forums on a whim. Your issue struck my interest and thought I would offer you my .02

I began working on outboard motors in 1975.
I became a OMC Mater Tech in 1994, a Mercury Master Tech in 1998 and a Yamaha Master Tech in 2002.
I was certified in Merc and OMC in the early 80s. I started working on Yamahas pretty much right after they hit the states.

[Sparkieboat]

I have a 2003 F115 that I just purchased..it was having some of idle stalls and some skipping in mid range RPMs..WOT seemed fine...I cleaned the VST filter (which was very dirty)and it stopped off idle stall but I lost some power..I am pretty sure I need to have my injectors cleaned...Rod said I need to flush entire fuel system including the rail..I am sure he is right...while I was working on the motor it started having other issues that I suspect are ECU related (not shutting off and RPM gauge going nutts) so I took it to a local Master Tech..I am still waiting to hear back from him..but as soon as I get it back I will do the complete fuel system flush..it is amazing how dirty E fuel is. I am also adding yet another filter in between the VST and low pressure pump. I HATE ETHANOL

[high sierra]

stalling Yamaha

To All, I don't know if the fuel rail and injectors were pulled or not. This thing is still under warranty and they, the shop are determined to find the problem. So far, they are not doing well. This will the 10th week they have had it with 3 guaranteed fixes in that period in which the 8 hp Yamaha got me back. I have given them , and they have listened to all the suggestions and none have panned out. I'm beginning to back off and just watch this fiasco. No problem if I had the motor at home to take of the fuel rail and injectors, but I don't have access to my own boat and motor. I do agree with their strategy to keep me out of the shop. I hated having to have someone leaning over my shoulder watching every move while I repaired a motor. If anything I fault Yamaha for the lack of communication with me and the lack of caring for a customer. The tec should talk with the complaintant. I have had 5 Yamaha 's. Would I buy another yamaha. What do you think? high sierra

[rodbolt17]

yamaha outboard marine master tech program came into existence about 2001, the first series of master tech exams were in the spring of 06, I was in the third test and passed in 06.
it takes the pasing of the first 6 modules and passing the last with an 80% or better score, then you can qualify to take the master technician exam.
the names and dealership locations of Yamaha Marine master techs is posted on the yamaha outboard marine website.
typically partially clogged injectos wont show up at low speeds cause they can still flow enough fuel.
if one reads the start of this post this F150 started with a simple low speed off idle stalling issue.
now I believe the original issue is still there along with some technician induced issues.
the procedure for the F150 link and sync,if done by the book, may or may not work.
on my personal,and about 50 others,F150 it simply doesnt work.
others never have the issue.
mine had it the first day out of the box in august of 07.
mine took me about 3 hours to figgue out why and adjust it so acceleration off idle as,and is, smooth with no stumble.
the next ones did not take as long .
mine had no issues if you slammed the throttle from idle to WOT, only when moving the throttle slowly between idle and about 1200 RPM, like when docking.
always wondered why no one monitors the fuel rail pressure when its about the most critical engine paremeter under the hood.
that stupid ECU always assumes the rail pressure is correct.

[boatmangc]

Typo,
Yamaha Master in 2007 Test score was 98.
I attend Yamaha school every year to maintain my status as well as keep up with the finer details that you don't get in the annual Tech Updates which I also attend annually.
Not looking for a flame war here, Just want to help.

[rodbolt17]

I just got back from Kennesaw jan 28th myself.
no more annual tech seminars. didnt have one for the 2010 year.
kind of a bummer.

they sent out a bulliten several months ago and in each class a tech rep comes by and explains why.
dealerships and techs wil now have information emailed to them.
gotta volvo catalyst engine school next month.
dry stack marina I work at has a lot of yamaha 150 and up with twins,and a lot of 27-33 ft with twin volvo.
I have actually done a PDI on an F2.5 once.
the one and only I ever saw.
we just dont see a lot of little engines.
I have learned to hate the 1000 hour service on 36 grady's with twin F350's, or about anything with twin or triple F350 or F250 motors.
nothing like standing on a ladder for two days doing maintenance.

[99yam40]

Boatmangc
That makes more sense, and glade to hear as this motor looks like it needs it.

Have you heard of and used this procedure for correcting that off idle stall before that Rod is talking about?

What is everyones thoughts on the the difference between the map sensor baro reading and the local weather channel baro reading? And it makes you wonder what it reads now it has been swapped out with the other motor and the other motor has problems now also.

I find it strange that on post#36 it was running perfect, but on #40 2 weeks later it ran into the same problems again along with the so called starvation issue after running through rough water as explained on #45.

[rodbolt17]

the baro sensor is simply that.
it feeds information to the ECU,at key on power, information pertaining to operational altitude.
the higher the altitude the less oxygen is avalible the less fuel must be injected. the ECU adjusts the injector pulse on time accordingly.

this sensor is a simple 3 wire pressure transducer.
you have a 5V reference circuit and a pick off voltage circuit.
if the reference circuits has an issue or another sensor on tha circuits loads the circuit down then the pick off voltage will be incorrect.

once running the MAP sensor only gives information on manifold absolute pressure.
as boats dont typically change altitude much per key on cycle the key on baro reading is locked into the ECU and not reaquired until the next key on cycle.
High sierra posed that he was at 6000 FT yet his baro pressure standard did not agree with the standard baro pressure for 6000 ft.
yes there is a chart.
here a baro reading of 29.9"Hg means a hurricane or at least a tropical storm.
like I keep hammering on, its a simple SPEED DENSITY set up running in an open loop(no O2 sensor).
there is a definite physical correlation for baro pressure and air teperature VS oxygen content per cubic inch of air.
thats the DENSITY part of the ECU map.
the speed part is typically based on a crank position sensor or a pulser coil input.
if the ECU knows the correct air DENSITY and the correct engine SPEED it can then look at throttle angle(TPS) feed back and manifold absolute pressure(MAP sensor fedback engine LOAD) and calculate fuel injector pulse on time and ign timing for the ECU mapped target engine speed.
its why the F225 WOT ign timing is 21* BTDC and actually common to see it as high as 38* BTDC in actual operation.
typically that scene is over propped.
the ECU is going to look at the throttle angle and the engine speed and the manifold pressure and attempt to make the engine turn to a mapped engine target speed.
the ECU CANNOT add air, thats a function of the throttle shutter.
it can play with injector on time, more or less fuel, and ign timing.
the laptop rarely tells you whats wrong.

hoever by using the data record and graphing functions it wil tell you what the ECU is seeing for opeational inputs and what its doing for outputs based on its inputs.

that goes back to a complaint I have voiced with Yamaha AND volvo.
the MOST critical part of this system is fuel rail pressure.
and its NOT monitored by the ECU.
the only Yamaha that monitored high pressure fuel rail was the HPDI motors.